26 (edited by jxsl13 2016-12-17 20:11:18)

Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

@m!nus nobody of the regular player base knows about github nor do they want to participate in pull requests, because they do not know, what is talked about in there. Those PRs are highly topic specific and cannot be understood by non-professionals, that's why I'm asking to start a PR subforum to promote PRs in human language and not in professional speech.

Edit:https://puu.sh/sSH13/88e56506ce.png

Time to close stupid issues, but no time to participate in this nor review pull requests... no comment.

Teeworlds[ friends ] clan
Some YouTube Stuff about Teeworlds

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

When I started playing Teeworlds, there were usually just 2 servers with people playing - that was fine. If it goes back to that - still fine. It was never the aim to get a lot of players, it's a niche product, even though it attracted lots of players during time. People start and stop playing games, that's life. Games die and people move on.

The current development status is a combination of things: lack of time, people become inactive, stuff Magnet mentions here and that the game is pretty much perfect the way it is.
Teeworlds always has been about simplicity and minimalism and that's not going to change. It's not turning into an anti-Teeworlds like ddnt or become mod-friendly etc.. If someone isn't happy with what Teeworlds is. The source is open-source, use it, make your own thing, fulfil your dreams. No hard feelings, that's part of the game.

There are plans for a new version, but I doubt it will come to that as it doesn't seem realisable.

0.7 will be released in 2015

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

Thanks for the answer, Oy.

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

Oy wrote:

It was never the aim to get a lot of players, it's a niche product, even though it attracted lots of players during time. People start and stop playing games, that's life.

So what is the aim of teeworlds? Does anyone know? just curious smile

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

Ok understand hmm good luck!

P.S: DDNet is literally eating Teeworlds. You should ask yourself why ...

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

unsigned char* wrote:

P.S: DDNet is literally eating Teeworlds. You should ask yourself why ...

I think he doesnt care, atleast thats how his response sound like, threats will help noone

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

Oy wrote:

…and that the game is pretty much perfect the way it is.

I disagree. The game mechanics may be solid but the UX is nowhere near perfect. There is always ways to move forward, to improve things, maybe add a new thing here, simplify other things. If you just want to leave things like they are, keep maintaining the current version and let the rest move forward. (No, that does not imply making things mod-friendly necessarily.)

Oy wrote:

It's not turning into an anti-Teeworlds like ddnt or become mod-friendly etc.

How is DDNet anti-Teeworlds? I don't know a lot about it; I'd assume it just adds the features it needs.

Oy wrote:

If someone isn't happy with what Teeworlds is. The source is open-source, use it, make your own thing, fulfil your dreams. No hard feelings, that's part of the game.

While that surely is a possibility, forking was never a good idea and should only be done as a last resort. I'd prefer to see Teeworlds improve and grow more mature.

What do you say about Heinrich joining you as a core maintainer and moving forward?

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

minus wrote:
Oy wrote:

It's not turning into an anti-Teeworlds like ddnt or become mod-friendly etc.

How is DDNet anti-Teeworlds? I don't know a lot about it; I'd assume it just adds the features it needs.

I assume Oy means that it's quite far from the teeish, KISS spirit.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

m!nus wrote:
Oy wrote:

…and that the game is pretty much perfect the way it is.

I disagree. The game mechanics may be solid but the UX is nowhere near perfect. There is always ways to move forward, to improve things, maybe add a new thing here, simplify other things.

Of course there're things that could be improved or polished.

Dune wrote:
minus wrote:
Oy wrote:

It's not turning into an anti-Teeworlds like ddnt or become mod-friendly etc.

How is DDNet anti-Teeworlds? I don't know a lot about it; I'd assume it just adds the features it needs.

I assume Oy means that it's quite far from the teeish, KISS spirit.

Yeah.

m!nus wrote:
Oy wrote:

If someone isn't happy with what Teeworlds is. The source is open-source, use it, make your own thing, fulfil your dreams. No hard feelings, that's part of the game.

While that surely is a possibility, forking was never a good idea and should only be done as a last resort. I'd prefer to see Teeworlds improve and grow more mature.

In the 9 years I'm around here it has been done couple of times.

m!nus wrote:

What do you say about Heinrich joining you as a core maintainer and moving forward?

That's not going to work as we're not on the same page. And if you can't trust someone to do the right thing it just ends up in a waste of time.

0.7 will be released in 2015

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

You are a "kiss-taliban".... kiss is a desing concept.. not a life filosophy.

It has been a long time since you spend no more than 1 minute to check code that is not yours or your friends

THe big conclusion is that you never waste your time... but all other people yes.. waiting you.

36 (edited by Slayer *gV* 2016-12-18 15:47:11)

Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

Tbh, the only way would have been to fork teeworlds with fresh ideas and a new "head" (when it was still somewhat alive, around 3 years ago).
It was said multiple times that "this game fits KISS and is perfect".
Honestly, it is dead and that is the reason. Time changes and so the players do. There was never any real incentive to adopt to new techniques, ideas and generations.

On the other had, a fork would mean splitting up the player base, drastically changes (for the game and the players) and a lot of work. Without any "ROI" noone would be willing to throw that much lifetime into it.

Actually i would love to just drop everything here and start a new. Keeping the code base, getting a new github, get a new forum, giving this stinky, dead fish a new head, making some great plans and getting shit done. But I am not the one to do it (but i would like to be a part of it). I am really sorry to see it ending this way. Maybe we should do a poll and decide, as a community.

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

If you are talking about forking and parting ways, I think it's valid to point out a few things so you can decide upon them and what they affect accordingly smile

. Teeworlds doesn't aim to be a game engine (it's been said multiple times), it is a game in itself.
. Teeworlds and DDRace are two different kinds of game. Maybe DDRace has swept the playerbase because the majority of players are looking for that kind of co-op (and sometimes even singleplayer) experience. And there is nothing wrong with that. But the main game is a 2d shooter and that doesn't change... Whoever came here for a 2d shooter will get exactly that.

Despite that, it'd be nice if whatever comes out of this can revive the development a bit smile

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

"game engine" ... again this... Teeworlds game engine? ofc... drop Unity, Unreal Engine, Game Maker, ... Teeworlds is here!!!! no men... all of this is because is a 2D game? How many games you know that can be modded and you not tell it "game engine"?

DDNet is different... but is Teeworlds... all the base is teeworlds... if i improve some parts of this base why i can't try to do a PR in teeworlds?

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

The main problem here is that each player want something different. We can only agreed about making a slightly improved TeeWorlds. Not something really different, just a little better. For this reason, DDNet or TeeUniverse will never be an appropriate alternative/fork of TeeWorlds for what we are discussing here. "Split" the community is absolutely not an option too. So my suggestion is that heinrich5991 should create a subforum just before "Modification" that could be called "TeeWorlds+" or "TeeWorlds Community Edition (TWCE ??)" or something like this. A fork (in the github sense) should be also created with a team that will be active to merge PR and create some new interesting stuff. That way, the community will not be spitted. It will be much less aggressive that a hard fork with duplicated forum/website/code/IRC. We can also try to duplicate each PR to TeeWorlds (original edition) so Oy can merge them if he like them.

I think most of use agree that heinrich5991 fit perfectly the job of "Maintainer/main dev", so I recommend that you create both subforum and github fork and decide of the team. I think this solution is smooth and we can test like this what we can do in practice. No big announce, no hard fork, no anger, just a semi-official test of an extended version of TeeWorlds.

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

Oy wrote:
m!nus wrote:

What do you say about Heinrich joining you as a core maintainer and moving forward?

That's not going to work as we're not on the same page.

What's the matter ? Is this about KISS, tee-ishness, workflow, personal... ?

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

necropotame wrote:

The main problem here is that each player want something different. We can only agreed about making a slightly improved TeeWorlds. Not something really different, just a little better.

That's probably one of the main issues concerning this dicussion. People want a 'better' version, new features, etc. But I'm not really sure this will work out as there might be different expectations what 'better' means: allowing more modifications?, account system?, matchmaking?, new mods?, moving platforms?, ...

necropotame wrote:

I think this solution is smooth and we can test like this what we can do in practice. No big announce, no hard fork, no anger, just a semi-official test of an extended version of TeeWorlds.

I kinda disagree on this. What's the point on trying to keep compatibility with teeworlds if you are not happy with the current development? It will just limit yourself on the possibilities as Oy mentionted that the core game is more or less complete beside some polishing.

Anyways, good luck if youcreate a new fork, looking forward to see the results!

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

I agree with @necropotame that is similar to say by @jxsl13 but less disruptive... and with @BeaR ... Teeworlds need some infraestructure to work.

But teeworlds base finished? I have lags playing this game...

We have an outdated netcode because Teeworlds isn't a network engine..
We have an outdated mod support because Teeworlds isn't a game engine...
We have an outdated map editor because Teeworlds isn't a map editor...
And continue... but we have cool graphics big_smile thx to artist!!

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

I think the game may be finished, but it's becoming more and more outdated and the whole code base as well.
The map editor is as unfinished as it was about 8 years ago, at least they added the possibility to scroll your quad/tiles tree on the left menu(8 years).
I don't expect the gameplay to be changed, but the client and server code need a lot of work.
The client is missing a lot of tweaks and settings, (at least hiding hud elements would help) and the security is lacking in every part.
And without aggressive attempts to change anything, there won't be any changes.
I think you know a lot more than most people about the code, unsigned char*, and I would greatly appreciate some of your suggestions for the game, not necessarily for the gameplay, but for client and server improvements.
Have a nice 4th advent.

Teeworlds[ friends ] clan
Some YouTube Stuff about Teeworlds

44

Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

BeaR wrote:
necropotame wrote:

I think this solution is smooth and we can test like this what we can do in practice. No big announce, no hard fork, no anger, just a semi-official test of an extended version of TeeWorlds.

I kinda disagree on this. What's the point on trying to keep compatibility with teeworlds if you are not happy with the current development? It will just limit yourself on the possibilities as Oy mentionted that the core game is more or less complete beside some polishing.

I'm not saying that we must keep compatibility or not. I'm saying here that the community should stay here and try to made something better alongside vanilla. Like, there is two TeeWorlds: one made by Oy, and one by the community. I think that it's normal that some fork can get visibility in the official forum/website/download page. Since Heinrich is in charge of the forum, it's technically possible. And it's just a way to promote alternative versions without dropping the vanilla game.

I think it should be just a test first, because we don't know yet where to go, who is involved and how much we can work on it.

NB: When I say "we", I don't really talk about me as a part of the team. I've no time to work on a third project. I can however sometime create PR.

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

jxsl13 wrote:

I think the game may be finished, but it's becoming more and more outdated and the whole code base as well.

You will never really "finish" a game. It is like finishing life, once you've done it, you are dead. But even then the world keeps turning, and your (way of) life becomes old fashioned.
Maybe Teeworlds was somewhat finished 8 years ago. But now it isn't at all.

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

Slayer *gV* wrote:

[...] It is like finishing life, once you've done it, you are dead. But even then the world keeps turning, and your (way of) life becomes old fashioned. [...]

Wise words you speak here...wise words...

I think we should move away. I think no one if use plays vanilla cause it's such a great game. You play vanilla cause it's "eh.... Vanilla". And you play vanilla because although we have all these caveats there are a few really nice things in the game mechanics that you learn and that challenge you when playing.

Is teeworlds dead? I don't think so. I'm counting 1000 servers and sooo many players. Yes, I'm also talking about ddnet, because ddnet is some kind of co-op, but still teeworlds  (thanks for pointing that out). Besides, I know a projects that are a lot more dead (haha) and still work kind of for years (one example would be Ace of spades classic. Someone made openspades a few year ago and it's still living).

Besides, I think steam was the wrong way, or let's say steam isn't compatible with Oy tongue.  We got a considerable large impact (?) on the Player base, but almost none in here right? (partly wild guesses, excuse me if I'm wrong). So this "community wants" isn't just about us, it's also about the new "generation" that uses steam. Teeworlds was already old fashioned when I joined (way before I found out there was a forum tongue) but I remember the people were a bit old-fashioned too and it was funny playing an old-fashioned game with old-fashioned people. Has some kind of retro style. Well, nowadays it's playing with average 12 year old, definitely not old-fashioned people an even older-fashioned game. That's not funny anymore.

I would also be open for helping with the development, but I have rarely experience with c++ (minor problem) but teeworlds source is way too complex to be understood by me (or even part; major problem). So if anybody got the patience to help and guide my, I could probably be some help

But back to the topic: Heinrich is a good decision, I think. But let's fork and move on. Pull requests back to original teeworlds isn't a good idea I think, Oy could always pull our source if needed.

Having troubles finding servers in the serverlist? Go to Pastebin (its a referer cause there is daily a new pastebin) and add the lines to your settings.cfg (in %APPDATA%\teeworlds). Then open teeworlds and go to the favorites tab. (Note however, standard teeworlds client can only show 256 favorites, use ddnet instead)

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Re: Is the development of teeworlds slowed down?

An interesting reading .. https://medium.com/open-source-communit … edc28387ad