26 Reply by Dune (edited by Dune 2012-11-18 15:30:36)

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

traitor wrote:

Let me add a suggestion: what about some news updates, describe the progress (perhaps focus on great changes) and help people understand your decisions and they would accept it more likely. Now it is some kind of rumor mill for those who do not visit and understand github system.
Open up the development and make people participate, even when they only find information about upcoming gamebreaking edits and innovations.

That's actually very interesting. I wanted to work on that, but as I tried to gather data, code, samples of the current state of their projects, or simply the nature of the projects, I have come to realize something: people don't like to talk about their work/projects before it's finished and exactly as they want it to be.


They do not want anyone to judge their project based on an unfinished work. And you really can't blame them on that - look at how hard you are criticizing on 0.7 already. Even saying it was better before.


The worst things about that is the 75% of the projects which are never finished - because of a lack of motivation.
For every big project, you have to be constantly motivated for a long period, and when working alone/with very few people contributing this motivation inevitably drops for a while

These projects could be either finished by someone else, or the author could be remotivated by reading support, feedback, or even realize that even if it doesn't end to be exactly the way he had designed it, it's not bad and could be already released.


See how you're reacting to these changes. This is the kind of reaction coders 'fear' here, this is why they do not want to talk about what they're doing before "it's so good they can only be amazed now". And by the way, the feeling is even worse when people are not amazed.

So yeah, obviously, there are the some changes commited, on the git /oy/teeworlds. Obviously. But this is not enough to talk, this does not represent what is REALLY being worked on, because of that.



For those who do not want to read the above: This could be done, but a lot of content would be lacking because of people keeping projects private until the very end.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

27 Reply by Ioannisjanni

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Dune, i think they are critisizing on it , cause it will be the last version of teeworlds.They want it to be perfect, for teeworlds's sake.

Teeworlds!!!!

28 Reply by traitor

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

That is a good point, Mr.Pinky. Could it be the last big change we are about to expect?
Let me tell you what I expect: lots of user interface imporvements and convenience features. No changes on physics or weapons, nor inspirations on the basis of user modifications. And since maps are yet in the hands of every interested creator this is no big deal for developers too.
As long as different modes are made besides the official server application, I do not understand why to bother with another version at all.

Please do not understand this is disappointed critic, but a shout for explanations. Help me to understand the progress of your hard work, dear developers.

And I fully accept your point of view, Dune. Honestly I have not thought it through nor did I project my feelings onto others. Because what you describe is exactly the way I would to it. Work in secret and present something perfect, what I think is perfect. When I would be working alone, as it is now there are others involved and that is why information are public in a certain way (github again).

On the other hand this is not the first release of something new, so of course players have expectations and own ideas, every single one of us I can imagine wants something changed wink
We can only rely on polite people, who express their opinions in a mature and appropriate way. Making suggestions and not demands, discussing friendly and providing serious feedback. Like that the creators of our game could accept these opinions to think about. Whether they change or not its a different cup of tea.

How to gain motivation? Well everybody has something different, but positive user feedback is one way to go.
I am not sure to consider this game a big one, with constantly 1000 players (just an average example), but they cherish your work - and those of others, who add content and graphics, gametypes and modes. It is so great to pick something completely different, by just running teeworlds!

One last thing for now:

Dune wrote:

This could be done, but a lot of content would be lacking because of people keeping projects private until the very end.

This leads me to sad thoughts about different developers on this forum, who do not share their code, do not participate on the default game to promote their interesting or groundbreaking ideas. Keeping something secret for too long might be a problem for attention and interest.
But how to respect intellectual property.... This is somehow related I think.

My new maps, map pack for iCTF mode and chronology of Teeworlds

29 Reply by GBKing

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Wow, I didn't predict this to happen when I started the thread. I'm fine with people discussing sensibly in this thread, but please don't flame.

30 Reply by Ioannisjanni (edited by Ioannisjanni 2012-11-18 18:40:11)

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Nice way to explain it traitor!
It is awesome to see , that so many people are caring about teeworlds!
and as you say , People dont want to get dissapointed about  teeworlds, they are scared they will be  , and therefore , they are pushing the developers to the edge , They do this only to get the finish of the project witch is that teeworlds gets what it deserves.

GBKing wrote:

Wow, I didn't predict this to happen when I started the thread. I'm fine with people discussing sensibly in this thread, but please don't flame.

This is not what i call flaming , this is what i call a healthy discussion

Teeworlds!!!!

31 Reply by Zargon

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Mr.Pinky just look at heroiamarelo's posts and tell me if that's not flaming

32 Reply by Ioannisjanni

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

You got a point there...

Teeworlds!!!!

33 Reply by Dune (edited by Dune 2012-11-18 22:43:59)

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Mr.Pinky wrote:

Dune, i think they are critisizing on it , cause it will be the last version of teeworlds.They want it to be perfect, for teeworlds's sake.

This will not be the last version of Teeworlds or anything. Stop dramatizing. And I was not talking about HeroiAramelo or any other player's harsh criticizing, we're used to that on this forum. But it's not just on this forum. It's the way the community is.

Mr.Pinky wrote:

People dont want to get dissapointed about  teeworlds, they are scared they will be  , and therefore , they are pushing the developers to the edge , They do this only to get the finish of the project witch is that teeworlds gets what it deserves.

Again, this is total bulls***, developers feel no pressure and will release 0.7.0 when they want, and it will not be a finished version of Teeworlds.



To traitor
I've read your post, and I agree with it. But that's just an explanation and agreement with what I previously said? There is nothing you're arguing about.

Traitor wrote:

This leads me to sad thoughts about different developers on this forum, who do not share their code, do not participate on the default game to promote their interesting or groundbreaking ideas. Keeping something secret for too long might be a problem for attention and interest.

This is not a matter of not wanting to make their project open source - they want to release the sources in the end, they want their job included into Teeworlds - but a matter of keeping everything private and secret. That really makes dev/players communication very hard.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

34 Reply by yemDX (edited by yemDX 2012-11-18 23:00:25)

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Broken wrote:

Dune you're is amazing programmer but logic is not your strong suit. no 1 is saying change is a bad thing we are saying it is bad change. adding materials to 2 worlds isn't saying 100 * a bigger f***it's saying the compliment that's how good the basic game engine is.

Can someone decrypt this? I can't even understand what this guy said. You're "is" amazing programmer? "no 1"?  Lack of commas? Please, someone help me.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

35 Reply by Kottizen

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

yemDX: Thank you for not flaming and commenting on other people's lack of interests in linguistics, grammar and joining them together.

36 Reply by yemDX

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Kottizen wrote:

yemDX: Thank you for not flaming and not commenting on other people's lack of interests in linguistics, grammar and joining them together.

Fixed, and you're welcome.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

37 Reply by Slinack (edited by Slinack 2012-11-19 00:46:18)

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Dune wrote:

They do not want anyone to judge their project based on an unfinished work. And you really can't blame them on that - look at how hard you are criticizing on 0.7 already. Even saying it was better before.

(...)

These projects could be either finished by someone else, or the author could be remotivated by reading support, feedback, or even realize that even if it doesn't end to be exactly the way he had designed it, it's not bad and could be already released.


See how you're reacting to these changes. This is the kind of reaction coders 'fear' here, this is why they do not want to talk about what they're doing before "it's so good they can only be amazed now". And by the way, the feeling is even worse when people are not amazed.

So yeah, obviously, there are the some changes commited, on the git /oy/teeworlds. Obviously. But this is not enough to talk, this does not represent what is REALLY being worked on, because of that.

Meanwhile I fear what some dev could be thinking about a new piece of code or a new graphical change. I don't mean he has bad intentions. I'm actually pretty sure he wishes the best for teeworlds, otherwise he wouldn't be putting so much effort into it.
But sometimes you guys could use another point of view, a new idea or just advice. Again, I'm not saying the community knows better than the devs, but I do think we should be heard.

I can already say the new HUD, the main menu and the server browser are looking good; nice job.
(I liked the filter a few versions before the current one, but let's see what's coming up now.)

But I can also add, as it was said before in this topic, that the feet are not looking good. Even if the coder responsible for this isn't finished yet, I feel like I need to say it (and it's not bad criticism or flame). My point is: I don't know what the guy intend to do. I can wait to see it finished and have a bad surprise later or I can point it out now and hope someone can waste 1 minute of his time to acknowledge the problem or to explain why that change is being made.

On a final note, I think private development sucks and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone here.
Github is there for a reason, I guess.

check out these maps: infiltrate - choco - dustycloud

38 Reply by Broken

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

All we're asking for is a small bit of backwards compatibility. I think the new system is fine.

39 Reply by HeroiAmarelo

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

I agree.
The problem is not the new one, but it would be nice to use old skins as well, remember that the game is created for player, not for the creators of the game.
I would love to be able to use the old skin system and the new skin system at the same time.
No incompatibility, no problems.

Playing Teeworlds since 2011!
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40 Reply by traitor

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

You are right, Dune my post is full of agreement. I accept your decision and agree with it.
Maybe there are many channels where you and others working on the code could communicate with the players (the forum ist just one way, besides IRC, other boards, mailinglists, ... countless more I don't know), perhaps you do not consider this board as most important.
But in my humble opinion this is a good place to share your thoughts with the community and await their comments, even when some are rude and insulting (thats what moderation is about I guess).

Getting used to new servers and maps I wish old tilesets would be compatible, might be a way to add a second desermain to keep the old as backup... there would be a solution.
When it comes to custom skins I can understand the opinion, but I do not use any so...

Well my post is not about certain changes I like or do not, just meant as advice to share some personal notes on upcoming changes. Ask a developer or a rotating blogposting once in a while, I think you will find a person willingly to talk about his or her work.
.
Anyway I will stay tuned smile


yemDX, honestly I do not understand what you intend with your crude comments

My new maps, map pack for iCTF mode and chronology of Teeworlds

41 Reply by Dune (edited by Dune 2012-11-19 01:49:35)

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

To Slinack and Traitor:
First of all, thank you for the constructive posts. It's been a long time <3

Then, I think you are misunderstanding me on one point: I'm not defending the developers who are privately coding. I've never done this myself neither - I've kept some projects private, but that's because I've never had the intention to release them / propose them for Teeworlds.

My position here is that I'm trying to be a bridge, or a telegraph or something. The telegraph which links both sides. The problem is, one side is very rarely speaking on the phone, while the other is in front of a crowd with different people shouting different opinions - some louder than others, and not necessairly the most relevant shouts - hoping for someone on the other side to hear.

Fact is, I'm not in the secret with dozen of coders. Nobdy (afaik) is. I'm in the secret with nobody. I just want people to openly speak about what they're doing. It's really hard to find the treasures between all the garbage. I've found genius parts of code in (objectively) crappy mods.

So, as a reminder of the original post:

traitor wrote:

what about some news updates, describe the progress (perhaps focus on great changes) and help people understand your decisions and they would accept it more likely. Now it is some kind of rumor mill for those who do not visit and understand github system.

I tried to do it, and it's really hard to find the right people.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

42 Reply by frecel

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

I love the new menu, it looks awesome. Even though pretty much everything got moved around I did not have trouble finding anything, A+ for design there.

I'm not sure if I like the in-game menu (the one that opens when you press ESC during game). I don't see why all the buttons can't be on top of the screen like they are in current version.

teeworlds.reddit.com

43 Reply by BeaR

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Concerning skins:
It's still possible with a small script to transfer all your 0.6 skins to be compatible with the 0.7 skin system
Keeping compatibility would be quite nice for the player but would be quite ugly cause devs would have to maintain now 2 different ways for handling skins, which gives it more complexity.
Same for the tilesets, keeping different versions of the same tileset is more or less useless. Next versions will probably also change some stuff again and having compatibility just blows up things (size).

44 Reply by Broken

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

BeaR wrote:

Concerning skins:
It's still possible with a small script to transfer all your 0.6 skins to be compatible with the 0.7 skin system
Keeping compatibility would be quite nice for the player but would be quite ugly cause devs would have to maintain now 2 different ways for handling skins, which gives it more complexity.
Same for the tilesets, keeping different versions of the same tileset is more or less useless. Next versions will probably also change some stuff again and having compatibility just blows up things (size).


"Ugly" and "useless" are just the kind of subjective prejudice I'm speaking of that keeps the devs from adding 2mb of mapres files to the zip so that I don't have to wait 10 minutes every time I want to join a euro ictf old ctf4 classic, or rework about 100 ddrace maps that look like crap until I spend 15 minutes on each one reworking the tiles. And this in the days of insane bandwidth speeds and 3 terabyte drives.

45 Reply by Ioannisjanni (edited by Ioannisjanni 2012-11-19 20:31:23)

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Dune wrote:

This will not be the last version of Teeworlds or anything. Stop dramatizing. And I was not talking about HeroiAramelo or any other player's harsh criticizing, we're used to that on this forum. But it's not just on this forum. It's the way the community is.


Good god dune ....

Mr.Pinky wrote:

Dune, i think they are critisizing on it , cause it will be the last version of teeworlds.They want it to be perfect, for teeworlds's sake.

This will not be the last version of Teeworlds or anything. Stop dramatizing.

Who am i to know this wont be the last version of teeworlds ?

developers feel no pressure and will release 0.7.0 when they want

Okay , i understand that , but you where the one who started about pressurizing developers is bad

oh , and , do u know whats total bull**** ?
Your lack of looking at someone else his point of view, and just being in your own world.

Teeworlds!!!!

46 Reply by BeaR (edited by BeaR 2012-11-19 21:59:23)

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Broken wrote:
BeaR wrote:

(...)


"Ugly" and "useless" are just the kind of subjective prejudice I'm speaking of that keeps the devs from adding 2mb of mapres files to the zip so that I don't have to wait 10 minutes every time I want to join a euro ictf old ctf4 classic, or rework about 100 ddrace maps that look like crap until I spend 15 minutes on each one reworking the tiles. And this in the days of insane bandwidth speeds and 3 terabyte drives.

Well, the point is teeworlds itself should be as clean and light as possible imho (:
I understand that download issue but the map should rather be splitted into different components blabla.. (already planned), so ppl don't have to download stuff everytime. But still in my opinion, why should be keep some old stuff and blow up the default size of teeworlds. (e.g. I dont play ictf and dont need old jungle tilemap..)

47 Reply by yemDX

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

Broken wrote:

"Ugly" and "useless" are just the kind of subjective prejudice I'm speaking of that keeps the devs from adding 2mb of mapres files to the zip so that I don't have to wait 10 minutes every time I want to join a euro ictf old ctf4 classic, or rework about 100 ddrace maps that look like crap until I spend 15 minutes on each one reworking the tiles. And this in the days of insane bandwidth speeds and 3 terabyte drives.

Teeworlds doesn't need extra crap that isn't used in vanilla Teeworlds. The developers don't have to please any mod players. Just be happy that the developers even still allow mods. If I saw this whiny-baby stuff on the forums of my game, as a developer, I'd probably just make it closed-source.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

48 Reply by HeroiAmarelo

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

yemDX wrote:

as a developer, I'd probably just make it closed-source.

That's why you're not a developer.
Mods are the gametypes that make Teeworlds unique and different. Mods are the gametypes that have made Teeworlds popular (Well, it's much but... nevermind)

Playing Teeworlds since 2011!
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49 Reply by yemDX

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

HeroiAmarelo wrote:

Mods are the gametypes that make Teeworlds unique and different. Mods are the gametypes that have made Teeworlds popular

Okay? I disagree, but it doesn't matter if what you said is true or not. We're still talking about vanilla Teeworlds, not modifications.

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50 Reply by Zatline

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Re: Teeworlds 0.7 Trunk

HeroiAmarelo wrote:

Mods are the gametypes that have made Teeworlds popular (Well, it's much but... nevermind)

No, the German TV channel GIGA made Teeworlds popular!
The mods are the reason why most of them stayed for long time, maybe even to this day. tongue

HeroiAmarelo wrote:

Mods are the gametypes that make Teeworlds unique and different.

Truly, true!! smile

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