1 Topic by fisted

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Topic: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

As the author of quite a couple mods, and maintainer of one of the busier servers out there, this question has been on my mind for a while now.  Partly in response to recent discussions on this board, i think it's time to bring up this question (again, possibly):

Should we (whoever that might be) go and fork Teeworlds?  I ain't talking about changing a /lot/ - the fork would generally follow upstream's development, but we might introduce our own little patchset for added mod friendliness.  Think raising MAX_CLIENTS (a bit, no need pointing out it doesn't scale too well).

It recently became obvious (again), that the vanilla devs are not going to do anything which doesn't add any direct and desired value for vanilla, and it's their good right to so do.  Yet it seems ignorant, given the *huge* discrepancy in the number of vanilla players vs. the number of mod players. There are far more in the latter group. /They/ are, in absolute values, what keeps Teeworlds alive, /they/ are the guys who introduce new players to their mods (and hence Teeworlds, everyone gives vanilla a shot sooner or later), i suspect without the mod player base, Teeworlds would drop below that 'critical mass' it currently has, and gradually cease to exist, except on a couple dev boxes, and for the (surprisingly small) group of actual vanilla hardliners. YMMV.  I think it would be fair to make life a bit easier for say 75% of the user base.. (But sure enough, we had this discussion a dozen times)

So, what do, if not discussion it again ;)?

We might fork Teeworlds and add our changes, that's probably the easier part. The real issue is, would a) modders go for it, and, even more importantly, would players bother to use it?  It obviously means a different client would have to be downloaded and used, and it seems many players are rather reluctant to do so.
On the other hand, a couple modified clients do have gathered a fair userbase. If the maintainer of those clients would go for it, it might be a start...

PS: to avoid the obvious flamewar, this isn't about "stealing" teeworlds. In fact, i would gladly give matricks and Oy a sort of 'honorary committership' to the fork.

Well, gimme some feedback here.
-fisted

2 Reply by unsigned char*

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

If you do, count with me for whatever you want...

Why I'm a pointer? http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Zem9Ozn7BOo/T … itchie.jpg

3 Reply by Broken

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Be cool if you just fixed openfng and block tournament first.

I think it's a neat idea but probably impractical, sort of like universal healthcare.

4 Reply by Landil

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

I'd rather prefer people join official development instead of creating own mods. Why do not you guys assume responsability and participate in official development. Many hands make light work.

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5 Reply by Broken (edited by Broken 2013-02-27 08:30:58)

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

He kind of explained why, Landil. Mods have become better than the original vanilla game and brought vastly more people into the servers, yet seemingly no work will go towards helping modders.

6 Reply by unsigned char*

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

No, he don't said that mods are better than vanilla. He said that mods exists in the ecosystem of teeworlds, official devs ignore this and only made stuff for vanilla. This client knows that exists mods... this is the most important difference. If i understand good xDD

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7 Reply by Broken (edited by Broken 2013-02-27 10:47:06)

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Okay, than I'm saying it. Or at least equal to it.

8 Reply by unsigned char*

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

P.S: In my country exists the universal healthcare... smile

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9 Reply by Zodiac (edited by Zodiac 2013-02-27 10:46:03)

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

I wouldn't say mods are better or more important than vanilla, they are both valuable in their own way. But I agree with fisted, that seeing as Mods are extremely popular and they are getting limited attention, maybe exploring this option would be something to look into. However, I feel that a far better solution would be if we stuck to just the vanilla teeworlds and found a way for the main developers and mod developers to work together in creating a better game as a whole, rather than splitting it.

How about someone organizes a open meeting with the teeworlds developers, where modders can discuss their ideas and the developers can give their input. Your guys thoughts?

On a side note.

fisted wrote:

It obviously means a different client would have to be downloaded and used, and it seems many players are rather reluctant to do so.
On the other hand, a couple modified clients do have gathered a fair userbase. If the maintainer of those clients would go for it, it might be a start...

My mod has an optional client which on top of that requires online registration, and has about 500 users at present. So users are definitely willing to go out their way as long as you make it worth their while. Some advice, if you are planning on doing this, you should have it released before 0.7 because people will be changing their clients then anyways.

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10 Reply by Slayer *gV*

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

With some bad luck you will need to "fork" your own masterservers as well.

Also it's is a little bit overreacted, to fork a game (client, server, masterserver) just to raise the max. client-limit (imho).

Better do this:

Landil wrote:

I'd rather prefer people join official development instead of creating own mods. Why do not you guys assume responsability and participate in official development.

to avoid this:

I do not know wrote:

Estimated date for 0.7 release: 01-01-2016

.

But splitting the community might work as well...oh or stop the development at all.



Zodiac wrote:

How about someone organizes a open meeting with the teeworlds developers, where modders can discuss their ideas and the developers can give their input. Your guys thoughts?

Post ideas here:[SUGGESTION] Ideas for the next version or in our IRC (probably the better way).


Zodiac wrote:

I wouldn't say mods are better or more important than vanilla, they are both valuable in their own way. But I agree with fisted, that seeing as Mods are extremely popular and they are getting limited attention, maybe exploring this option would be something to look into. However, I feel that a far better solution would be if we stuck to just the vanilla teeworlds and found a way for the main developers and mod developers to work together in creating a better game as a whole, rather than splitting it.

Please don't forget, that this game is developed as open-source.

They are doing it in there leisure-time and thus don't want to struggle with any modrelated issues.
It needs to get implemented, tested, fixed, tested and to be carried with the code all the time.

But of course there has to be a clear border what will be implemented (vanilla stuff) and not (mod-stuff).
If we would go to implement any mod-stuff, you can count to 3 to see a sh*t-storm coming up right here
("You just care about this mod, why don't you care about my ideas?" etc).

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11 Reply by Zodiac (edited by Zodiac 2013-02-27 12:24:02)

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Slayer *gV* wrote:

With some bad luck you will need to "fork" your own masterservers as well.

Also it's is a little bit overreacted, to fork a game (client, server, masterserver) just to raise the max. client-limit (imho).

Better do this:

Landil wrote:

I'd rather prefer people join official development instead of creating own mods. Why do not you guys assume responsability and participate in official development.

to avoid this:

I do not know wrote:

Estimated date for 0.7 release: 01-01-2016

.

But splitting the community might work as well...oh or stop the development at all.

All these reasons is exactly why we should only consider forking teeworlds as a last resort.

Slayer *gV* wrote:
Zodiac wrote:

How about someone organizes a open meeting with the teeworlds developers, where modders can discuss their ideas and the developers can give their input. Your guys thoughts?

Post ideas here:[SUGGESTION] Ideas for the next version or in our IRC (probably the better way).

You are always able to achieve alot more by chatting on an IM than a forum, which is why I would suggest the IRC. However I suggest we set a time that the developers agree upon to get a collection of people present so we able to pool everyone's ideas together to come up with the best solution.

Slayer *gV* wrote:
Zodiac wrote:

I wouldn't say mods are better or more important than vanilla, they are both valuable in their own way. But I agree with fisted, that seeing as Mods are extremely popular and they are getting limited attention, maybe exploring this option would be something to look into. However, I feel that a far better solution would be if we stuck to just the vanilla teeworlds and found a way for the main developers and mod developers to work together in creating a better game as a whole, rather than splitting it.

Please don't forget, that this game is developed as open-source.

They are doing it in there leisure-time and thus don't want to struggle with any modrelated issues.
It needs to get implemented, tested, fixed, tested and to be carried with the code all the time.

I completely understand, which is why I am extremely grateful towards the developers as without the time and effort they put in, teeworlds would never be the great game it is. But for that same reason you guys should be embracing the mod community to save yourself endless hours of development. For instance, numerous features have been programmed in mods that could be used for the original teeworlds, such as those server creators, Dune's client's UT killing spree (etc) sounds, in-game IRC chat or even my TW account system.

Slayer *gV* wrote:

But of course there has to be a clear border what will be implemented (vanilla stuff) and not (mod-stuff).
If we would go to implement any mod-stuff, you can count to 3 to see a sh*t-storm coming up right here
("You just care about this mod, why don't you care about my ideas?" etc).

Not saying that the developers should implement stuff for a particular mod. The sort of things I am thinking of (and I am sure it is the same for others) is stuff that benefits all modders, such as increasing the max player size (I actually believe it should be dynamic), or in the start menu (which 0.7 will have) allow them the option to download other mod clients. Something like this https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=10135 but done more professionally ofc. I am sure you will get many modders willing to program these features as long as they know it will be added to teeworlds.

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12 Reply by Slayer *gV*

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

If you think your ideas could be a benefit just join on IRC and feel free to discuss it.
And, if coded well, it will get implemented for sure.

This is fairly nothing that hasn't existed before...

But never forget that many things WON'T be a benefit for all.
E.g. Max clients just for race or zomb.

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13 Reply by Dune

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

You're free to do whatever you want with the source, as stated in the licence.
You just probably won't have support from here since you won't help the actual Teeworlds.

You're also missing something.

You need a solid base for modding. Sure, casual mess is fine/funny/whatever, but if you start from something messy you won't go very far.

Where's that post already... Ah, there you go.

Shit wrote:

You honestly dont find yourself slightly biased right now?
Let me remind you, one important fact. Vanilla is the stem of TW!
All those good/bad mods are just "branches"
And all those are growing into thick bizarre branches, all in their own twisted direction.
Making it unbearable for the stem to grow higher!
Vanilla was great, and it would have been even greater by now.
Its MOD-paradox, and a current way of thinking.
a MOD-free TW would have a potential the MODS never will have.
[...]

Not Luck, Just Magic.

14 Reply by Zodiac (edited by Zodiac 2013-02-27 15:19:22)

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Slayer *gV* wrote:

If you think your ideas could be a benefit just join on IRC and feel free to discuss it.
And, if coded well, it will get implemented for sure.

This is fairly nothing that hasn't existed before...

But never forget that many things WON'T be a benefit for all.
E.g. Max clients just for race or zomb.

From my experience, the teeworlds staff don't care much about mods. In Oy's own words.

Oy wrote:

The max player limit will stay at 16 as it's way enough for vanilla gameplay - which is the only thing that matters.

I suppose all I am asking is a change in mindset and to be more open minded to implementing ideas that benefit mods, even if it doesn't affect vanilla. Btw, this is not about the max player limit, it is about the attitude in general towards modding. Like it or not, both vanilla and mods is what makes teeworlds thrive.

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15 Reply by TeecTac

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Hi fisted,

What's the state of the mod/gametype policy ?
Would the official developers be willing to include extra game types if the extra work is also provided ?

Is there any other reasons why you would not be willing to contribute to the main codebase ?

In my opinion you should first negotiate with the devs before forking.
Maybe you can trade an extra mod or server side lua support for compliance to coding standards or whatever.

By the way, i'm a big fan of your openfng mod, great work.

Developper of teeworlds-stats.info

16 Reply by Zodiac (edited by Zodiac 2013-02-27 16:05:59)

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

In fact, the answer to all these problems is a built-in client downloader. I know this was already addressed here, but the reason it failed was because we tried to find a perfect solution, which never came about. But there is a solution, have a thread on the forum where people post their client for verification (has to be open-sourced ofc). Then only verified clients can be downloaded, and even then still warn the users that they use custom clients at their own risk.

There really won't be that much of an administration problem because there just aren't that many custom client mods out there. There are less than 10 that I can think of. And you can always get volunteers to go through the code to make sure there isn't anything malicious. If it means more and better mods, I am happy to volunteer.

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17 Reply by Dune

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Because the relevant answers happen in IRC and never get posted on the forums, I allowed myself to post an IRC log:

http://puu.sh/29e9p
http://puu.sh/29eac

The forum discussions tend to be off from what happens on IRC.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

18 Reply by Kirbs

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Mods are what keeps Teeworlds alive. If Teeworlds wasn't open source, (mod capable) and just vanilla...
75% of the players would leave.

no

19 Reply by Dune

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Lord Kirby [HDP] wrote:

Mods are what keeps Teeworlds alive. If Teeworlds wasn't open source, (mod capable) and just vanilla...
75% of the players would leave.

It's been posted a lot, thank you for the notice.
I, at the opposite, think vanilla would have much more players without mods. Cf. 0.4.0.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

20 Reply by Sonix

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Dune wrote:

I, at the opposite, think vanilla would have much more players without mods. Cf. 0.4.0.

And you're totally right.

21 Reply by Broken

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

All the evidence points otherwise. I love ctf but 90% of players i know would quit with just vanilla. Even I probably might. These players also consider mods to be teeworlds (gasp).

ctf lives and dies on it's own, wtf with finding some non sequitor 'reason.' Here's the reason, people stopped playing it. Mods introduce more people to vanilla, on and on but logic be damned.

22 Reply by Zodiac (edited by Zodiac 2013-02-27 17:56:04)

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Guys there really is no need to get into this argument again. Mods are clearly important. How much so? we will never know.

Dune wrote:

*snip*

Already brought up that lua idea on IRC and it was shot down, and I agree with the points they make. It is unfeasible as it will require tremendous effort to accomplish. Which comes back to my original idea, a client loader. Straight forward, and allows teeworlds to remain pure to vanilla. With the only downside being that it requires extra administration work.

I will discuss it with matricks at a later stage and get his input.

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23 Reply by HeroiAmarelo (edited by HeroiAmarelo 2013-02-27 18:12:40)

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Dune wrote:

I, at the opposite, think vanilla would have much more players without mods. Cf. 0.4.0.

Vanilla would have much more players, but Teeworlds have a lot less players. wink

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24 Reply by Kirbs

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

True, Sonix is correct, but HeroiAmarelo is also right.

no

25 Reply by Variecs (edited by Variecs 2013-02-27 19:46:02)

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Re: Should we fork a Mod-friendly version of Teeworlds?

Who cares about how much players do mods have? There's no point of gaining people to Teeworlds if they don't play vanilla.