76 (edited by Lady Saavik 2015-06-10 13:28:27)

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Dune wrote:

What we are developping is a game, not a game engine for other games.

Oh, so that's honestly something new for me. I thought that's why it's open source xd

But it looks like you had a plan to make a simple game a few years ago, and you will never change your mind. It has to be this game, because that was the plan when you started.
Maybe it would be a good idea to be more friendly to other Mods? Now you see how it grew, what people like, what is popular, what it good. You should be more adaptable I think. Something changes over time so you have to rethink your goals. No?

77

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

I think mods are an integral part of Teeworlds.
If I play zCatch, I don't feel like playing another game, I feel like playing Teeworlds. If I play DDRace, it's the same.
That's all part of Teeworlds, this cute universe of little circles running around on green grasslands.
Tees started with battling themselves, but soon they tried out other things, they even worked together!

What I'm trying to say is that Teeworlds wouldn't be Teeworlds for me if it weren't for the many different things you can do with your Tee. I think the name change from "-wars" to "-worlds" really emphasized the fact, that this game is an open world, a playground.

That said, I don't want to reject what the devs think of TW, of course.
You guys have to consider the following: Which other game, which offers modifications, openly promotes them in the official trailer? They may state that the game supports modification, but they won't showcase particular ones. So that's why I understand what Dune says.
What we have to consider however is that Teeworlds is a game somewhat made by the community.
So maybe a community trailer would be a good choice? That's what other games might do, too: Assembling a separate video showcasing the most popular or advanced modifications made by the community.

Loving TW since 2010 smile

78

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

So finally (as I'm making something what should look like trailer) there should be in video:
- skin customization
- map editor
- gameplay (ctf/dm)
- something about open-source?

I would be pleased with answer about basics which should be included into video. smile

79 (edited by Fifi 2015-06-10 17:38:45)

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Dune wrote:
HeroiAmarelo wrote:
Dune wrote:

I'm strongly against the idea of promoting modifications in an official video.

Although I understand your point of trying to separate the vanilla and the mods, gametypes like DDRACE completely changed the way Teeworlds works. DDRACE alone made what was but an original 2D shooter into a co-op platforming game and that's really impressive and deserves to be shown to the new players. People love 2D platformers and there aren't many good co-op (with actual coop) platformers out there. Specially with the brilliant tool that the hook is!

No. The way Teeworlds changes will change how modifications such as DDRace work, not the other way around.

He probably meant that DDRace works differently than vanilla gamemodes and therefore needs another description, because showcase of vanilla is completely irrelevant to such mods, not that Teeworlds should change to be like DDRace. And that DDRace was created to add new type of fun to Teeworlds, not to replace the vanilla one.

Dune, I'm not asking to promote mods over vanilla, I'm only asking for a few seconds of snapshot at the end of the video. That's totally different thing. Also, please take this into consideration:
https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtop … 56#p113956

Fifi wrote:

Also, what's the point of calling a game "open", if it disowns its own mods?

I don't want to steal vanilla players, I only want them to know that vanilla gamemodes are not the only ones. Just like it's done in the game description below the movie - short mention of mods and everyone's happy. smile

80

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Lady Saavik wrote:
Dune wrote:

What we are developping is a game, not a game engine for other games.

Oh, so that's honestly something new for me. I thought that's why it's open source xd

I have no weight in this decision but this is something I believe is pretty agreed on among the devs. I remember having this discussion.

Lady Saavik wrote:

But it looks like you had a plan to make a simple game a few years ago, and you will never change your mind. It has to be this game, because that was the plan when you started.
Maybe it would be a good idea to be more friendly to other Mods? Now you see how it grew, what people like, what is popular, what it good. You should be more adaptable I think. Something changes over time so you have to rethink your goals. No?

Teeworlds is already very friendly to mods: it is open source puts very little restriction to what they can do to both the client and the server, and still use the official masterserver to advertise themselves. It's even shown with little to no distinction in the server list (something I disagree upon).

Not Luck, Just Magic.

81

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Fifi wrote:

Also, what's the point of calling a game "open", if it disowns its own mods?

You're missing the point. Allowing children to play football on your lawn isn't the same as dealing with their requests to convert your lawn into an actual football field. It's still nice and open for anyone to play and do whatever they want.
It's like the children feel like they're suddenly entitled to ask you to direct your efforts to building their facilities.

Fifi wrote:

Dune, I'm not asking to promote mods over vanilla, I'm only asking for a few seconds of snapshot at the end of the video. That's totally different thing.

That's very reasonable as the large community of mods is part of Teeworlds, but the trick is to make it unbiased to any mod, in my opinion.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

82 (edited by Fifi 2015-06-11 00:52:03)

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Dune wrote:

Allowing children to play football on your lawn isn't the same as dealing with their requests to convert your lawn into an actual football field.

Mods are not replacement for vanilla gamemodes, they have their own servers, etc. We don't want to do anything at the expense of vanilla.
As I stated before, the vanilla may even benefit from mods, because people who got attracted by some of them may then start playing vanilla from time to time (even if they wouldn't play Teeworlds at all without being intruigued by mods).

Dune wrote:

It's like the children feel like they're suddenly entitled to ask you to direct your efforts to building their facilities.

But the mods community does not ask for help, they only ask to not being ignored.

Dune wrote:

That's very reasonable as the large community of mods is part of Teeworlds, but the trick is to make it unbiased to any mod, in my opinion.

I understand your point, but if we completely avoid talking about mods, we'll make it biased to vanilla then. sad
Of course we could avoid bias by not naming mods in the showcase, but then people may be left wandering, if they happen to like a particular one.


The solution (the most fair I could possibly think of)
I think we should make a 5 seconds showcase of mods which are currently popular (DDRace, zCatch, City, OpenFNG, Infection, xPanic, iCTF, TeeBall) - maybe without the names shown, taking 40 seconds of the main video, followed by a black screen labeled "You can check out mods showcase in the second video". Then we should make another video of 10 seconds from every important mod (there are about 20 mods which are not slightly-modified clones of other ones, so even if I forgot something, we should make it to be max. 5 minutes long) - this time with mod names visible.

This way vanilla will still have majority of the videos (most of the first one and the third one), but the mods will be mentioned without really promoting them and the showcase video will prevent us from ignoring any of them.



In order to make Battle, OpenFNG and DDRace 10-second snapshots understandable, we should make Battle part of some tee capturing the checkpoint and shooting from a tank (fairly straightforward), OpenFNG one with a tee shooting another one, then throwing it into the spikes and DDRace one of tee finishing to drag other one through freeze, to be then dragged out by it, finished with both running through the finish line. We should focus on making similar presentations of vanilla gamemodes and other mods the same way. Small labels with description of mod purpose and key features (for example: cooperative gameplay for DDRace or Monster, dynamic gameplay for Instagib or zCatch, teamwork for OpenFNG or xPanic, tactic skirmish for Battle or Alien, etc.) below the mod name could also be useful.

83

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

"Vanilla teeworlds is as dead as it gets."

Vanilla teeworlds is doing great. It's played regularly on local LAN-parties in the whole world (as people report).

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

84

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

I certainly don't wanna start a flame war here.
I play ctf games a lot during the week and sometimes convince my friends to play dm in LAN.

But your definition of great sucks. Get real.

check out these maps: infiltrate - choco - dustycloud

85 (edited by [pieLover] 2015-06-11 07:14:13)

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Slinack wrote:

I certainly don't wanna start a flame war here.
I play ctf games a lot during the week and sometimes convince my friends to play dm in LAN.
But your definition of great sucks. Get real.

I agree. Basically, if one modification has significantly more players monthly on average than vanilla, you can't say vanilla is doing great. (DDrace (not even including variants) vs Vanilla for example)

Clan: Riot (I'm one of three leaders: Mile, Deku, pie)
Host teeworlds maps on a fng/ctf/dm/ddrace server for testing:http://riotproductions.tk/teewo/ broken-need reinstall nginx http://riotproductions.tk/bounce?whatEven, Teeworlds NA Discord chat

86

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

pielover88888 wrote:
Slinack wrote:

I certainly don't wanna start a flame war here.
I play ctf games a lot during the week and sometimes convince my friends to play dm in LAN.
But your definition of great sucks. Get real.

I agree. Basically, if one modification has significantly more players monthly on average than vanilla, you can't say vanilla is doing great. (DDrace (not even including variants) vs Vanilla for example)

To be honest DDRace was more popular than Vanilla for a long time already, but general player count went down recently, imo.

Loving TW since 2010 smile

87 (edited by Fifi 2015-06-11 08:54:37)

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Nah, since the creation of DDNet it seems to be going up (source: finishes amount from [click]). Basing on [click], it's almost 4 times as big as vanilla.
I guess that if we want to be fair, the main video should be mostly consist of vanilla with a short section designated for mods at the end.
The mod showcase should be put in a second video. I described it more precisely here: [click].

Remember that every new player may start playing vanilla, even if it's the DDRace cooperative gameplay which brought him in. We can use it to vanilla gamemodes advantage, because cooperative multiplayer is something really popular lately.

88

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Whenever I've been active on Teeworlds recently, it's been the absolute worst time of day for me. It's literally always 5 DDrace servers with 100 ping and then everything else is 200 ping or greater. Maybe one openfng server, which I'll play on, but it's really annoying because I'm sort of addicted to Teeworlds but there's no chance to actually play...

Even when I am on at a normal time for North America, there's usually only Wetfish CTF5 and everything else is mods. European vanilla might be alive, but it's ~220 ping for me and that's ridiculous.

I don't think LAN parties should be counted upon as the indicator of whether vanilla is healthy. Vanilla is healthy only if a new player with no knowledge of LAN parties can come in and see several active servers that are with reasonable ping. If we exclude the completely invisible LAN parties, vanilla Teeworlds is in serious need of revitalization. It's clinging to life support.

There used to be a time when there were several CTF servers that I had <200 ping on that were regularly active. Now there's only one. I remember being in 6v6 to 8v8 CTF matches every single day for hours at a time. I'd like to see that return, but it won't work out if we keep pretending that vanilla is healthy. It is dramatically barren compared to what it used to be.

I'm not trying to be rude or get into a massive argument, I'm just stating what I see as a player who is limited to public, passwordless servers like the vast majority of new players from Steam will be.

TL;DR: Public vanilla is dying, and by default that's the only thing newcomers from Steam will see.

I've got two FNG maps which are close to ready for public release, hopefully they'll be on the forums soon! Aforementioned maps are on the back burner. Still doing mapping, but have higher priority map projects.
It should never take 45 seconds to download a map for anyone with a decent connection.

89

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Fifi wrote:

Remember that every new player may start playing vanilla, even if it's the DDRace cooperative gameplay which brought him in. We can use it to vanilla gamemodes advantage, because cooperative multiplayer is something really popular lately.

I think you are missing a big point here.
It's okay if there are players who don't like shooting games as much as coop platformers and wanna play ddrace or something else, but teeworlds being on steam is all about bringing *new* players to vanilla (because this is the actual game being promoted and developed here).

New players interested in a multiplayer shooter game.
Of course we can acknowledge the great potential of mods, but bear in mind a trailer should be short to keep things interesting and objective.

IMO a really short mention to MODs, in general, in the main video should be enough. Usually people watch more than one video, so there can be another one showcasing a little bit more of gameplay and possibilities.

check out these maps: infiltrate - choco - dustycloud

90

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Fifi wrote:

Mods are not replacement for vanilla gamemodes, they have their own servers, etc. We don't want to do anything at the expense of vanilla.

Even though it's not at the expense of vanilla, mods use the big Teeworlds playerbase to get people. Why do you think all the modifications that could not be shown in the official serverlist died off or had a very limited success?

Fifi wrote:

As I stated before, the vanilla may even benefit from mods, because people who got attracted by some of them may then start playing vanilla from time to time (even if they wouldn't play Teeworlds at all without being intruigued by mods).

In practice, it has worked the other way around - people going casual with mods and not bothering to play vanilla => lack of newbies in CTF servers => newbies get smashed.

Fifi wrote:

But the mods community does not ask for help, they only ask to not being ignored.

That's the same to me.

Fifi wrote:

I understand your point, but if we completely avoid talking about mods, we'll make it biased to vanilla then. sad

What? It's only normal to show the official game in an official trailer.

Fifi wrote:

Of course we could avoid bias by not naming mods in the showcase, but then people may be left wandering, if they happen to like a particular one.

That's still a biais if you show only a few mods.

Fifi wrote:

I think we should make a 5 seconds showcase of mods which are currently popular (DDRace, zCatch, City, OpenFNG, Infection, xPanic, iCTF, TeeBall)

See - here you defined the mods you want to see with arbitrary criteria. If there was to be one, I would have picked some very different ones. That's the tricky part and why I think including modifications gameplay in the official trailer is bad.
Maybe some teeish ones that were considered for official integration (there was race and another one) would suit, in my opinion.

Slinack wrote:

I certainly don't wanna start a flame war here.
I play ctf games a lot during the week and sometimes convince my friends to play dm in LAN.

But your definition of great sucks. Get real.

"no offense but your tastes suck"

Not Luck, Just Magic.

91

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Dune wrote:

"no offense but your tastes suck"

what?

check out these maps: infiltrate - choco - dustycloud

92 (edited by baus 2015-06-11 12:30:51)

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Dune wrote:

No. The way Teeworlds changes will change how modifications such as DDRace work, not the other way around.
Plus the debate of which modifications to show is endless. I could argue that it's an even more radical changes that they've done with ball games, or that Race is a more suited, clean and teeish mod.

Well, where should I start?

In case you didn't know: Advertising Teeworlds has nothing to do with...umm...journalistic ethics?
Because your talk about tw officially being "unbiased to any mod" somehow sounds like you believed that...

Dune wrote:

See - here you defined the mods you want to see with arbitrary criteria.

I'll tell you the ONE important criteria which you seem to miss: advertising value.

There is only ONE thing that helps every gametype in teeworlds including vanilla: An INCREASE OF THE AMOUNT OF ACTIVE PLAYERS

Therefore the only goal you can have as reponsible and intelligent officials is to get as much people as possible to start playing Teeworlds.

I DON'T EVEN CARE IF YOU SHARE MY OPINION ABOUT INSTAGIB NEEDING TO BE INCLUDED IN A TRAILER.

ALL I WANT IS FOR YOU TO REALIZE THAT THE DECISION MAKERS HAVE TO CHOSE THE GAMETYPES SHOWN IN THE TRAILER BY GUESSING* WHAT WILL GET THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF VIEWERS TO TRY OUT TEEWORLDS.

* Of course these "guesses" should be based on a rational discussion about advertising values.

I recommend reading my post #71 again. I don't just "want" instagib in the trailer, I tried to give reasons, explanations for my belief that instagib can appeal to a certain target group that may not be reached by vanilla.


As a last proof of me not being biased:

I don't like the gametype "infection". However, in my opinion it needs to be included with some short scenes into a possible trailer.

Why? --> Survival gameplay is extremely popular at the moment. Also, infection gives you certain elements of tower-defense which again appeals to target groups that probably wouldn't be reached by vanilla, instagib or something else.

Every new infection-player would make the instagib-fan inside of me happy.

Why? Because I know that a certain amount of infection-players will discover instagib and start playing it, therefore making it more popular.

Additionally infection-players mean free word-of-mouth-propaganda attracting new players which again will create word-of-mouth-propaganda and so on....


Edit:

Dune wrote:

In practice, it has worked the other way around - people going casual with mods and not bothering to play vanilla => lack of newbies in CTF servers => newbies get smashed.

That simply is a problem inherent to the vanilla gametype of teeworlds.

Think of other online-games:

1. You have shooters. Ok, in "normal" shooters you have somethign similar as in instagib with teeworlds: Newbies are able to occasionally kill experienced, high-level players. Already a headshot is enough.

2. Other games that are played online have ranking-systems that create matches of players who are on similar skill-levels.


There may be some exceptions - as I said, I'm no gamer at all. However, most games fit into one of the described categories.

YOU JUST HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THE VANILLA-GAMETYPE IN TEEWORLDS ISN'T REALLY ATTRACTIVE FOR NEWBIES.

What can you do? Well, just try to increase the total amount of teeworlds-players as much as possible and you'll finde more newbies playing vanilla. It's your best and only solution.



A last argument:
If you don't include a description in your trailer that shows how to search for vanilla servers specifically, you can just as well make a trailer with the most spectacular scenes out of different mods (including vanilla) and simply don't give the names of the mods.
That way you have the same result: People who decided to try out teeworlds will randomely visit servers and coincidentally play different gametypes, may it be ddrace, instagib, vanilla or something else...

93

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

As the official dev(s) have no part on the developement of the modifications and therefor can't assure quality (for me the main reason) and some sort of future compatibility, I'm rather against showing real in-game footage of mods in the trailer.

Beside that if someone will actually do an actual trailer(which would be really cool (: )  I would recommend to keep it rather short and try to keep the focus on the gameplay and the features which teeworlds offers (editor, costumizations, ability for modification). Also some teaser for the next release which includes the 2 new gamemodes (+ redesigned maps, etc.) would be nice.

And congratz for the getting in the top100 so quickly!

94 (edited by baus 2015-06-11 12:08:01)

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

BeaR wrote:

As the official dev(s) have no part on the developement of the modifications and therefor can't assure quality (for me the main reason) and some sort of future compatibility, I'm rather against showing real in-game footage of mods in the trailer.

Beside that if someone will actually do an actual trailer(which would be really cool (: )  I would recommend to keep it rather short and try to keep the focus on the gameplay and the features which teeworlds offers (editor, costumizations, ability for modification). Also some teaser for the next release which includes the 2 new gamemodes (+ redesigned maps, etc.) would be nice.

And congratz for the getting in the top100 so quickly!

ADVERTISEMENT IS NOT ABOUT SHOWING EVERYTHING THE GAME HAS TO OFFER.

THE ONLY GOAL OF ADVERTISEMENT IS TO GET PEOPLE TO TRY OUT YOUR PRODUCT.

I DON'T RACE MYSELF BUT IT LOOKS SPECTACULAR IN A TRAILER ----> PUT IT IN!

ONCE TW HAS BEEN DOWNLOADED A PERSON WILL TRY IT OUT, GO ON DIFFERENT SERVERS AND HOPEFULLY BECOME FASCINATED BY THE GAME.

95

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Jesus Christ, calm down.

Move along, nothing to see here, really.

96

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Why are we even talking about this? I have never seen a game having an entire section of their trailer dedicated to user content unless they were built around that, which teeworlds, while very open in that regard, is not. It would just look messy, whenever i go on some modded server there's all this weird stuff I don't even get, people turn to ninjas and can't move, you have guns but can't shoot other people, there's a health bar but it's useless, because you die instantly? I don't understand how that makes a good trailer, sorry.

burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.

97 (edited by JonastheRoman 2015-06-11 13:26:39)

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

wappsify wrote:

Why are we even talking about this? I have never seen a game having an entire section of their trailer dedicated to user content unless they were built around that, which teeworlds, while very open in that regard, is not. It would just look messy, whenever i go on some modded server there's all this weird stuff I don't even get, people turn to ninjas and can't move, you have guns but can't shoot other people, there's a health bar but it's useless, because you die instantly? I don't understand how that makes a good trailer, sorry.

Yeah, good points. The real game-changing mods cannot stay faithful to the original interface, which looks strange at first, of course.
So I still think it would be nice to make a community trailer showing of the most popular mods. The main trailer would only contain a brief line about mod support.
I still think it would be cool to include short glimpses of some mods in the main trailer (if it is 2 minutes long, let's say 20 seconds all in all), as it would attract more players, but the points against it are undeniable, so yeah.

Loving TW since 2010 smile

98 (edited by Oblique. 2015-06-11 16:56:41)

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

So I did the opening animation (I'll be adding the fade from/to black/white transitions soon). Tell me if you want anything fixed.
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/c2s1tym1 … mation.avi

I'm going to end up making two trailers, one with only vanilla gameplay and the other with glimpses of the mods at the end. I'll submit them both, and you can decide which one you like best. So the main thing is that I need demos. This will help anybody whose trying to put together a trailer. The demos should preferably be vanilla, because I only need a couple short 2/3 second clips for the mods. Nonetheless, I be happy to take whatever demos you have, modded or not.

A is for Apple.

99

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

Oblique. wrote:

So I did the opening animation (I'll be adding the fade from/to black/white transitions soon). Tell me if you want anything fixed.
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/c2s1tym1 … mation.avi

Maybe a bit more teeish, right?

I don't project my insecurities on other people.

100

Re: Teeworlds on Steam

yeah, I think that opening animation doesn't look like Teeworlds at all big_smile