1 (edited by snowball 2008-01-28 11:20:24)

Topic: Hammering boost a.k.a. CHAAARRRGEEEE!!!!

Important note: if you prefer a KISSy reference of the idea, skip to the end of the post and read the first PS now.

As a devoted dwarf in all RPGs and cRPGs I played, I really welcomed hammer as the melee weapon in teewars (an axe would be even better, but it probably doesn't fit all-sweet world of tees wink ). But as things are now, hammer isn't really as well designed as other weapons are (like grenade launcher, which I found pretty good and ready as-is for 1.0 release). And I came up with an idea to balance it a bit and make more fun from it as well.
Let's start with the following question - what is the usage of hammer on large, spacious maps (like airen_ctf1 or ctf2)? Let me answer - it's of very little or no use at all, especially when the map is full of armor shards (ctf maps usually are). And the weapons were intended to be balanced, weren't they?
Also, some people on this forum pointed out already, that hammer battles are very little skill-based, more luck-based. You can even stand still and make that an even battle to anyone who will try to hammer you (that's exaggerating things a bit, but you get the idea).
And here comes my little nifty idea, which is very natural after you think a bit on it: make the hammer damage speed dependant. That is what our ancestors used in Middle Ages (they even invented a specific weapon for it, which is called lance). And in what way is hammer worse than lance? The answer is: in no way. Momentum is momentum and hammer is even bigger than lance. wink
In other words, simple and short: Let our tees CHAAAARRRGEEEEE!!!!!
Ok, let's start the real thing, presenting what I got:
Here is some graphic explanation of the idea. The possible damage would range from 3-6 and here's how I think these numbers should be associated.

a) 3 points of damage. Very low speed. Example situations to show up in:
- standing still
- moving very little here and there (note that you lose all horizontal momentum if you decide to change direction, so this situation suits here as well)

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/401/s3nm9.png

b) 4 points of damage. Walking speed. It's the way it is done now, and after changes it shouldn't be really hard to achieve too. Example situations to show up in:
- walking with normal tee speed (if the button is pressed in the right moment, that is, if you press it like 1 or 1.5 second after you crashed into another tee and lost your speed, don't hope for 4 damage)
- hit done after a small jump (or after bigger, if pressed in the right moment) - and I don't mean the height you gain after single jump, but even smaller (like the knock you get after being hit by hammer)

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5572/s4nb4.png

c) 5 points. Running speed. That should be the most damage fairly easily achieved on small or sophisticated (I mean those which resemble labirynths) maps to keep the balance with other weapons (since hammer is pretty strong on small maps already). Example situations to show up in:
- correctly hit after single jump (not much changing direction or other losing speed midair), or falling from a bit bigger height from a hook (like BAANZAAI, i really miss it)
- running with mid speed (I mean something like the one you get when you once hook the ground skillfully while walking)

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/8335/s5te9.png

d) 6 points. Extreme speed. That should be really hard to make at small maps. Example situations to show up in:
- falling from a great height while hooking or after correct double jump (on small maps there usually isn't enough space to make double jump, than hit with your hammer)
- running with a great speed (I mean something like the one you get when you once hook the ground skillfully while walking, and then do a skillful grenade jump)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/1667/s6sq0.png

I read somewhere that you are afraid of spawnkilling. Well, I understand that. And 6+4 certainly makes a spawnkill, not to mention 5+5. But well, I don't really think it's a problem, since to get 5 you have to jump (and that takes some time) and to deal 6 you have to run at great speed (which is not too often and hard to hit while you are speeding anyway) or double jump (you can't do it everywhere and it takes even more time).  So I think the fresh spawned tee will have enough time to react, especially since you get a hammer at start wink
Please also note that all the proposed changes won't cause overpowering of the hammer since it's more like one-time boost, cause you have to stop in order to hit with hammer, and all the speed you had is gone.
Possible variations of the idea:
a) if you don't like reducing damage of the hammer, you can set the minimum damage to 4 and make the range 4-6;
b) if you really like the whole thing posted here, you can even increase the range, like 3-8, but I think the 8 is really the highest value that should be possible to achieve, since 9 is katana damage. And 8 still allows killing enemy full-armored flagbearer in 4 hits, like 8+4+4+4, or even 8+5+5+5 or so. And I think that dealing 7-8 points of damage shouldn't be really easy (hardly possible for newbies).
And this idea will provide everyone what they want - skilled players will get new techniques to train and it won't get any harder for newbies - since 'hammer battle' can be still resolved in 3 hits, what is now 4+4+4 will be 4+3+3, since it shouldn't be really hard to deliver one hit from walk or a small jump.
You are welcome to post your own variations if you want.

Damages and speeds can be tuned up to fit developers' tastes, but I really think that some boosting to hammer must be done, as well as adding new skill to teewars: how to deliver 5-stars blow and how to not get hit for 5 or more, which will certainly make hammer battles more exciting.
Any suggestions/critisism are welcome. Especially about how to make this work well together with hooking enemies, since Scorpion-like hammer-hook combos are imho essential to teewars and hooking an opponnent seems to slow you down. Slow tees have less momentum and hit for less. Maybe that's ok, how do you think? Since when you want, you can still use hook and deal little damage or you can go for combos, jumps and deal more damage? Or maybe let's freeze tees' speed (only for hammer's purposes, not for real) after using hook on enemy tee?
And after writing all that stuff, I found another plus of adding this - my hard training on race maps how to gain and maintain high speed would give even more profits big_smile
I'm waiting for your response. With a great hammer, obviously.

Howgh!

PS sorry for the topic being more of a story rather than a KISSy reference of the idea, but that was the way I like things to present. For KISS-lovers, short description of the idea:
- make hammer damage speed-dependant (the faster you are atm, the more damage you cause) with the minimum of 3 and maximum of 6.
And that's all - isn't the idea sweet and KISSy?
PS2 and for those with good eyes - yeah, stars on the pictures aren't from teewars (they were too small), they are taken from Psi jabber communicator.
PS3 since I'm Polish, messages with telling me any grammar/spelling/any other mistakes in this post are welcome.
PS4 and no, I'm not an enemy of brown bears! smile

Take a look at my posts with ideas:
Hammer+charge * Headshots smile * Yet Another Energy Gun * Map scrolling

2

Re: Hammering boost a.k.a. CHAAARRRGEEEE!!!!

+1

Maybe needs a bit of balancing but variable hammer damage would be VERY nice smile

3 (edited by Innocent Hawk 2008-01-27 22:41:12)

Re: Hammering boost a.k.a. CHAAARRRGEEEE!!!!

This thread seem like a good place to bring up my hammer suggestion.

I have always thought that the way the hammer is currently animated, it appears to lack any real punch to it. I just looks like you are wiggling it around in an attempt to be scary, but failing miserably. smile

I think if it was animated more like this (but faster), it would be great:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v137/Innocent_Hawk/Teewars/Hammer2.gif

Note how the actual hammer swing to attack moves faster than the swing to pull it back for another attack.

4 (edited by snowball 2008-01-28 13:18:29)

Re: Hammering boost a.k.a. CHAAARRRGEEEE!!!!

I think i kinda like it the way it is now (since it looks funny), but I have nothing against it as well. But please note that that would need to change also the way hammer damage is delivered (now it's done in the very vicinity of the tee and the current animation imho suits that) to some more 'ranged' attack (judging from your animation).

And please reconsider - isn't the current animation+sound just too cute to be changed ? smile

Take a look at my posts with ideas:
Hammer+charge * Headshots smile * Yet Another Energy Gun * Map scrolling

5

Re: Hammering boost a.k.a. CHAAARRRGEEEE!!!!

You're right snowball, both posts

ThePuMa Clan

6

Re: Hammering boost a.k.a. CHAAARRRGEEEE!!!!

I like this idea:)

7

Re: Hammering boost a.k.a. CHAAARRRGEEEE!!!!

Seems cool. What I thought when I readed the topic title was somekind of hold-thingie. You hold the mousekey to charge up and then release to give the punch. The longer you held before releasing the more you will damage.

I think I prefer this though, I think most things in teewars should be more speed-sensible for example the rocket speed being relative to the tee speed but well, that's another topic.

Official Teeworlds map developer and community moderator
Administrator for the Teeworlds community Teesites

8

Re: Hammering boost a.k.a. CHAAARRRGEEEE!!!!

@Rocket .. this already happens wink you can shot much further while swinging (e.g.)