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Topic: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

~{MS}~ would like to say a few words as a response to the recent victory of our clan in the recent MTC instagib tournament. First of all we would like to thank MTC, and all persons behind the tournament who made it possible for us to participate. If it hadn’t been for their quality management and commitment to the organizing of the tournament our road to victory would never have a chance to begin, let alone finish with our glorious conquer. Thanks also go to the TeeTV crew which has done an excellent job in reporting and commentating on the exiting games we had a chance to be part of. Their coverage of our actions will give the history of Teeworlds one more beautiful chapter, written with the materials of their archive, and showing the excellence a strong team of friends can achieve and deploy against its competitors.

Next to our thanks we hope this tournament has proved that there’s more behind the pro-instagib argumentation then many people tend to realize. Whereas certain voices have long considered and still consider instagib a nail at the coffin of the vanilla game, we hope to have shown that there’s a significant elements of tactic, teamplay and competition in this modification. This certainly differs greatly from the original game, and might not be the exact path the developers wish to walk, but it’s the road a significant part of the community has chosen and for that they should get some respect. The time has come to end the attitude which writes instagib off as a easy mode mod which only attracts four year olds and inexperienced vanilla players. People make the choice to play instagib not on the base of their negative experience with the original game, or no experience with the original game at all, but because they’re more attracted to the tactical and fast-paced gameplay it offers.

Teeworlds should be proud that it has spawned such successful modifications, because it only promises more of such modifications to develop in the future. A very significant part of Teeworlds has been build on the shoulders of a large community input offering refreshing ideas and additional content which the developers would have never been able to develop by themselves. Instagib will always be a major feature, and in contrary to popular thought these players are no second-rate citizens, but are just as valuable to the community as any other vanilla player. Trying to force players to choose vanilla over modifications will only split the community in two and do more harm than instagib as a respected mod can ever do. ~{MS}~ speaks for an entire community if we ask for an attitude change which respects instagib as a very successful modification instead of the “disease of vanilla”.

We hope the exiting matches between us and our competitors have given some very good examples how instagib can certainly be an extra element of quality in the success formula of Teeworlds. The high level of tactical gameplay, well organized teamplay and close competition between teams has shown that instagib deserves all the respect any other modification, and more importantly vanilla Teeworlds, deserves. Those individuals that don’t like this great development have every right to voice their opinion, but only if it’s based on valid argumentations and focuses on a decent discussion, not on the seeding of a bad attitude which causes more harm than good. With this ~{MS}~ will guarantee that they’ll actively live up to this truth by continuing to voice the opinion of the community behind instagib. We’ll continue to support every event which contributes to the success of instagib and combat any attempt to falsely displace the player emphasis away from instagib, unless this is done on valid grounds. With this we hope to bring an even better future to the whole of Teeworlds, and prevent an ungrounded community split. May the future prove us right.

With this being said we want to give our credits once more to MTC, and the unique chance they gave us to show our true qualities, and the qualities of instagib. It are events like this who will continue to expand not only the instagib community but the Teeworlds community as a whole. They have given a simple game like Teeworlds the depth which will guarantee an expanding player base and long term player interest in the game. ~{MS}~ can't wait until the next tournament and will definitely be ready to defend it's title as the number one instagib champion. We hope our competitors won't hesitate to return to the arena and do everything in their power to give shape to yet another highly competitive tournament. We can guarantee we'll continue to develop our skills and when the time comes we'll defend our title. Until then, keep up the great effort involved in making it all come true.

The ~{MS}~ clan

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Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

IMO, a fun game is a game which is complex and a fun multiplayer game is a game which is competitive. Every game is boring at a certain point, but for me the more complex it is, the less boring it will be (well too complex is boring too :>).

Of course games like tic-tac-toe are fun, but only at school for 10 min... I think teeworlds is competitive because of :
      - the weapons
      - the items (hearts, shields)
      - the movements (hook, double jump)
      That's why I personaly like teeworlds.
       
So as I think a good game is a competitive, I dislike instagib.

I have to admit that it could be a fun mod, but not a competitive mod. And MTC instagib proves it. I have nothing against Hiryuu, he did a great job. But in my opinion, the games that I saw and played (styx against MS and Z against 6d7n) were really boring. Instagib is repetitive and not really fun to watch (I would like to hear the opinion of Golvmopp about that).

Why it is boring (imo) :
      - always the same thing even while attacking (in regular defending is already a bit boring for me, so in instagib...)
      - no weapon skill : you only need to aim and shoot (look the pistol, the gl, the shotgun, it is not that easy ; it requires some practice and more than the ability to aim at the enemies)
      - no pickups, so less tactical
      - one shot = one kill => you die to quickly, not really fun to watch
      - less tactical so the games could be too long (like the first round styx against MS, at first it was really tight [then we sucked :>]), Hiryuu had to set the scorelimit to 300... It wasn't his fault, it was instagib fault imo.

The other thing that sucks in instagib is the bounce. It is too rando. It is a good idea, but is it normal that I kill someone with a shot that I missed ?

I am not saying that instagib is a total failure, there is some skill and teamplay. But it makes me laugh when I compare it to regular teeworlds :>

So instagib is making teeworlds easier. It is easier to kill someone, easier to play because you don't care of weapons or items, or ammos. And imo, right now instagib isn't ready for competitions. As I said to Eve, you (the instagib community) have to change this mod to make it competitive for competitions. So the games won't be games of 40 min. So the games will be fun to watch.

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Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

I have to admit that it could be a fun mod, but not a competitive mod. And MTC instagib proves it. I have nothing against Hiryuu, he did a great job. But in my opinion, the games that I saw and played (styx against MS and Z against 6d7n) were really boring. Instagib is repetitive and not really fun to watch (I would like to hear the opinion of Golvmopp about that).

Actually yes, it can be boring to watch, but it's not boring to play for everyone. You need to be an instagib player to see the detailed aspects that make the game interesting, so if you aren't one, it will be hard to see for you.

- always the same thing even while attacking (in regular defending is already a bit boring for me, so in instagib...)

See, because in instagib there are no pickups, weapon curvatures etc., the player's attention is moved to other aspects of the game, mainly movement and tactics. This results in a different gaming experience, making the player seek entertainment in advanced moves and the prediction of other players' movement. So if you're an instagib player, there's never the same thing going on, because you're more focused on HOW you do things than just on doing them.

- no weapon skill : you only need to aim and shoot (look the pistol, the gl, the shotgun, it is not that easy ; it requires some practice and more than the ability to aim at the enemies)

Actually, laser is a weapon requiring a lot of skill, and because it kills instantly, it's even harder to master. I respect all the other weapons and see all their different aspects. I agree that they aren't easy at all. But I can't accept the argument that the laser requires no skill. The first example is US winning the instagib MTC, not any other clan. It wasn't just because we're nice guys. If laser requires no skill, then have a clanwar with MS and we'll show you. big_smile Laser bounce, shooting around the corners, mixing a hook with the laser and shooting while in the air - these are tough things to do, requiring practice. Vanilla players tend to complain about the laser's simplicity, but I know well what people do when they pick up a laser in vanilla. They instantly change to the GL.

- no pickups, so less tactical

I think that instagib proves that pickups != tactics. The tactical aspect is just moved to your movement and prediction of the movement of others. The planning of movement - which in instagib has to go on all the time and very quickly - adds to the tactical side of the mod.

- one shot = one kill => you die to quickly, not really fun to watch

Agree here, not fun to watch. But if you try to see the bigger picture of the game, it's quite amusing.

- less tactical so the games could be too long (like the first round styx against MS, at first it was really tight [then we sucked :>]), Hiryuu had to set the scorelimit to 300... It wasn't his fault, it was instagib fault imo.

I know that it happens in vanilla too. From what I've observed, vanilla CTF comes down to both players taking the flag and running around the bases. And the other players are just trying to get their flag back and score. This isn't too tactical for me too, you know. Isn't fun to watch and play too, if all the vCTF games look like that. But still - I'm an instagib player and I may miss some important aspects.

The other thing that sucks in instagib is the bounce. It is too rando. It is a good idea, but is it normal that I kill someone with a shot that I missed ?

Well, the bounce is random if you don't use it. Then it just happens and you can't do anything. In vanilla it also happens that you randomly kill somebody. Trust me, once you start trying to kill with the bounce, it stops being random. And if a noob kills you with a bounce - well - it just happens. I don't know where the problem is.


So instagib is making teeworlds easier. It is easier to kill someone, easier to play because you don't care of weapons or items, or ammos. And imo, right now instagib isn't ready for competitions. As I said to Eve, you (the instagib community) have to change this mod to make it competitive for competitions. So the games won't be games of 40 min. So the games will be fun to watch.

I agree. There should be something to make instagib more interesting to watch for vanilla players. Somerunce created a laserjump, but the community refused to use it, because newbies started to gain high speeds, completely ignoring the hook. And even though it makes the games more fun to watch, it also kills the movement-centered spirit of instagib (not by itself, but by its wrong use by newbies). So if anybody comes up with an idea of making instagib more competitive and ready for competitions, we'll certainly try to promote it.

Again, please understand that we're not here to create conflicts. We're here to say: "Hey! We're here! Don't ignore us, accept us and try to understand us!". We're just a different gametype, that's all. We don't wanna fight. We'll explain everything you need, we'll show you all our perspective - because we know that vanilla is hostile towards us just out of not-understanding what we are. Cheers.

~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://www.monkeystyle.tk
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

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Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

You always refer to the insta tournament and your victory as a truly great moment in the history of teeworlds, but in reality, it was the most boring stuff TeeTV ever dared to broadcast. Listening to Somerunce talking random shit on public servers was a whole lot more entertaining than this absolutely boring instagib tournament.

Maybe that's because Somerunce isn't an instagib player himself? How is he going to comment on instagib not knowing much about the instagib player's experience? If I were to comment on the games, I'd show them the way an instagib player sees it. "Nice move", "great trick". That's because instagib is more focused on details, like movement and quick planning. Nobody's going to comment on instagib better than an instagib player, and I bet there's somebody who can show you what fun is there to see. If you ever want to see.

If you had switched positions and played a vanilla game versus them, we know the result would have been a fatal defeat for your team.

So what? This is instagib. You can play it or not. Nobody's expecting us to own at vanilla, and it's Styx who wanted to challenge us. They lost, we won, that's all. We're not here to fight with vanilla but to show that we're here. We don't care if we would own at vanilla, and we don't care if Styx or POLICE would own at insta. It doesn't matter, seriously. We just want to show our presence in the community.

Imho, every attempt at hyping this Mod up to be as challenging as the normal game, is a ridiculous failure in my eyes.

There are no attempts, there are only facts. If you don't consider instagib challenging, then play against MS. If somebody thinks that instagib is not challenging, then they should try to pwn at it. It's not that easy, because first you have to be open-minded, which is hard if you're a Camptain AMN.

~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://www.monkeystyle.tk
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

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Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

Ubuntu wrote:

But in my opinion, the games that I saw and played (styx against MS and Z against 6d7n) were really boring. Instagib is repetitive and not really fun to watch (I would like to hear the opinion of Golvmopp about that).

I'll have to go soon, so I'll do this quick. I'll probably extend this post when I get home, but anyway.

From my point of view, instagib isn't boring more frequently than any vanilla game, it's just that when it goes to a lockdown and they just def with three players and have 1 player each that attacks, it really turns boring.

Also, instagib have the tendency that when two (too) even teams meet, the match will go on for ages. I spent a lot of time the weeks before MTC watching and playing instagib to get a feel for it. What I found was that there is a difference in how the game is perceived. If you play the game, you don't see the standstill as the spectators see it. But that's not what this is about.

What I wanted to say was that when an instagib game is good, with lots of action and lots of back and forth, it is really amazing to watch. Even for people that normally wouldn't touch insta. As o10 stated, the instagib players measure a good game in the details, but from a spectator's point of view, that reasoning is a load of crap imo. Sure, a nice move by Beckham sure is nice to watch, but the game can suck anyway.

Flow, energy, teamwork. I don't care if TW seems too "plain" or is too far from the final release. What both instagib and vanilla players can do when they find the flow, have the energy and make 100% use of their teamwork, is pure art. When we get the pleasure to watch artists in work, we don't whine. We shut up and watch. When they don't live up to our expectations, we get bored and wonders "what's so special?". Insta players on these levels do a great job of using their own power to turn a lame gamemode into something we all can enjoy just for the sake of the art.

I'll probably continue later, and perhaps finally get to the point. tongue

The proposition "I am the center" need never be uttered. It is the assumption upon which all certainty and all doubt turns.

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Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

@ o10 :
All the things you mention (movements, prediction...) are in vanilla. In a 1on1 vanilla game on dm1 there is a lot of prediction (too much maybe tongue) and movements are a bit better than only hook the ground and jump...

About the bounce : that's why I think the bounce should be activated only on purpose.

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Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

I don't have that much time, therefore I put it in a nutshell:

1. instagib needs skill: you need to aim much more precisely, to predict others' movements exactly, you need a high reaction rate and good and fast movement skills
2. bouncin': Tigger likes to bounce and I like the bouncing laser. I very often use the bounce to shoot around edges and to use the delay. It's hard to get under control, but that's what IS the difference between noobs and pros.

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

8 (edited by Magnet 2009-02-25 13:23:52)

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

My mommy told me not to feed the trolls, and I didn't want to, but I'll bite. smile

First let me start by saying I have nothing against instagib players -- and they can play whatever they want to play, it's their time. But frankly, I don't see the point of this "open letter" other than to start a useless flamewar.

If I follow correctly the chain of thoughts (please correct me if I'm wrong), the whole argument is that MTC was a 'proof' that Instagib is a valid gametype (I'll pass the parts specific to MS which really read like self-patting on the back).

Here, I don't see how MTC would prove that, the simple fact that Instagib exists and has the following we know show that it is a valid gametype smile.

Now I don't believe anyone said anything against that -- so this is quite the empty statement.

Another thing I read in the open letter is that MS asks, in the name of pro-instagibers, respect from the rest of the community, more specifically the vanilla players who discard Instagib as skillless.

Obviously the argument on respect only matters regarding to whether or not there is skill in Instagib, and how the game type compares to vanilla; because I'm sure no one holds anything against a player only because he plays Instagib.

Like Ubuntu and AMN, I can't prevent a smile when comparing the challenges of vanilla and instagib. The fact is Instagib is a strict subset of vanilla -- all moves, all techniques and all skill existing in vanilla exists in Instagib. The main difference in aspect is the "one shot, one kill" which changes the dynamics of the game and thus the strategies (by a fair margin) and the degree of teamplay affecting outcome the game (very slightly).

In one sense, this open letter is fun because we obviously have very different interpretations of the games that happened at the MTC, regardless of the outcome.

I like vanilla CTF because to win, you need teamplay, of course, but mostly it is about variation in the strategies and feints. Always using the same attack factor won't bring you anywhere. You need effective diversions and cooperation to bring the flag back.

Unfortunately, there is one thing differentiating us that prevent this debate from going far -- and that is that we know the layout of pro CTF games, and the layout of pro iCTF games, while you obviously don't know much about pro CTF games. The 'proof', here again, is that you thought the most common situation in CTF is that both teams get the flag. This is actually a rare event in clanwars (just as rare as in Instagib), and it happens mostly on low-level public games.

In my mind, most iCTF games are high level (compared to the general level of iCTF), compared to most CTF games (because a lot of beginners and lower-level players are in regular CTF, and because the vanilla skill span is a lot, lot wider).

Let's go back to iCTF and skill. I do agree there is skill in iCTF -- and I think everyone agree. When people say there is "no skill", they implicitly mean "no skill compared to regular CTF" -- and if you hold the comparison, it's merely a fact.

You say that in iCTF you try to be really careful not to be hit by enemy shots -- yet those shots are mostly from straight lines (or bounces whose angles can be deducted). In regular CTF, there is also the laser, but you also have to care for the grenades, for the pistol shots and from shotgun bullets (and a lot, lot more from the hook). More vectors of attack mean having movements more complex, because they have to be at the same time quick, unpredictable and provide *mobility* for just in time grenade dodging.. All that while yourself shooting with a lot of weapons, which allow an almost always-fire combination through cutting cooldowns by switching weapons.

You say that CTF players switch to the grenade launcher when they get the laser rifle. Obviously they do, since the laser rifle is a rare while the grenade launcher is a commodity; that no weapon is adapted to all situations. The default weapon of most regular players is the grenade launcher because it allows to block enemies around you, it forces them to be careful and cuts their speed either through hits or forced dodging. A lot of players also default to pistol for ammo regen and as a "radar" for enemies far outside the screen.

The complexity of vanilla CTF outshines iCTF by every single factor.

Now let's move to what made that MS won, and why some instagibers are better than other. First, playing only instagib have instagibers used to very specific moves that only take into account the laser rifle as a mean of death, meaning that their movements are optimized and totally ignore the threat of other weapons. Regular players have other habits, habits to have moves that give them a much better average successful dodge in a situation with all weapons. Now, this is normal that the instagibers would be better at that, and one could argue that any player in instagib just has to accommodate with that factor. I have no problem with that.

However, the true lesson I got from the MTC iCTF, the true result, in my mind, is simply: iCTF games are won out of stubbornness rather than outstanding skill. Of course, a lot of clans in the MTC iCTF were totally skillful regarding the skill subset of iCTF. The teamplay of some teams (namely MS) was very impressive as it is a quality that is lacking in most teams, whether they are CTF or iCTF teams.

But the true winning factor was stubbornness, willing to win at all costs. Taking the flag and scoring was more a question of persistence and waiting for the opponent defense to lack of concentration, than actually out of smart tactics, attack moves. This is what regular CTF is about: best attackers aren't just dully attacking over and over, they are trying to create a weakness at a given time and exploit it. And once they get the flag, it's not only about rushing (though I'll admit that teamplay plays a big part in bringing the flag back in Instagib too). In vanilla CTF, a smart flag carrier is a player who knows how to fool the defense at a level incomparable to iCTF.

Once again, I am talking about the mod itself, iCTF. Not about the players. They just demonstrate what I'm saying. Let's see duv or tho as examples of perseverance -- they both are very skillful but they take the flag when there is a concentration mistake in the other team, not because of the originality of a move. I guess this is all fine and dandy for two instagib clans who know what they're in for, that is, a game that might last 2 hours if you fight for each inch of territory. Unfortunately, against vanilla players like me who play for the beauty of the move (the "art of Teeworlds" as Golvmopp said wink), it's only pure boredom. The repetitiveness of Instagib is killing much more than enemy shots. Winning out of desperation and lack of fun isn't the most glorious style.

So I'll join Ubuntu here: while iCTF is easy fun, distracting, good aim training on public games, it is simply not meant as a competitive game. It is a profoundly unbalanced game where defense has too much advantages, since all players have the same life, weapon at spawn, whether they are on attack or just spawned. You kill 5 players on the way to the flag only to find them on you when you finally get it. If it is ever to be a competitive game, it has to be changed by the Instagib community (personally I think that there isn't much to do as the fundamental concept seems flawed game design).

Well, this is a very lengthy post but at least it is done, and I can simply give the URL the next time people ask me about my mind on Instagib wink.

On a side note, I'll congratulate MS on only one thing because that's the only really outstanding skill they have (everybody can move, shoot and want to win so much that they are stubborn enough to play 40mins games with 300 scorelimit): they have a really good teamplay and that can be achieved only with a mature team of experienced players who understand the dynamics of the game and really try to improve and that's something great.

So my two conclusions for the MTC iCTF are:
- Instagib is fun in DM/TDM but not skillfull. iCTF is not competitive because it is profoundly unbalanced and flawed, and the endgame is more "who will last longer" than "who is better". No, sorry, that level of mindless concentration is not part of skill in my book.
- MonkeyStyle is one of the rare clans with real teamplay in Teeworlds, and it is indeed sad that they limit themselves to iCTF while they obviously don't know regular CTF more than mid-level, public games. Well, tastes are very personal, but I can't help to think they just don't want to challenge themselves and risk going back to being the underdogs smile.

And if you reply and quote me, be sure to quote the full context. Thanks.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot one thing. I think the gametype filter solved the problems with vanilla being overrun by CTF, so I have strictly no problem with Instagib and I believe it's the same for others. We still have to wait a bit for all people to move from 0.4 but the future looks bright. Actually I'm wondering if it's not instagib which is in the worse shape now smile. So I guess everyone off to their old ways, so long, and thanks for the fish big_smile.

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Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

I've read through all your posts, and I must say I'm not surprised. So, here comes my opinion.

The reason that I created the first version of Instagib was a request by some people. I have never played Instagib in any other game and don't have the slightest idea of how it works in other games.

I play Instagib at a regular basis. Not every day, not as a pro player, but for fun. Ever since the first release I've been trying to find new ways of adding skill as a requirement to play the mod. I tried to add visual stuff like explosions on hits (0.4.x-version) and killing spree. They don't affect the gameplay but the later kinda shows if a player is skilled. I've been trying adding new versions of instagib such as hook- and hammer-instagib, which totally failed. In the latest version I added laserjumps. I guess I should have tested it more, but I really thought this would make the game faster and more competative. The games would be even faster and perhaps not as long and BORING as the games I streamed in MTC. I was bored after 5 minutes - same things happen all the time in Instagib. iCTF is all about getting speed, going in to the other base and get killed by the other team's camping defender.

Camping is too used in Instagib right now. One player can defend really easy unless the opponent team have really good teamwork - which is rarely the case. A camper respawns directly and can go back to where he were and continue doing the same thing again, and again, and again...

What I wanna say is, I need your help. Help me to make the mod more compative. Don't just say "laserjumps sux somerunce you idiot remove them", because that doesn't help anyone. Come with something new. Do we wanna keep playing this messy mod forever or try to add some spirit into it?

I might provide another instagib version, since I see you are so enthustiatic about this. Let's not make this another flame thread. Come with something constructive.

Thanks for reading.
Somerunce

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Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

@Magnet:

You say that instagib skill is incomparable to vanilla skill. And I agree. Again, what we've all already learned in our discussion is that comparing vanilla and insta is like comparing hamburgers and hot-dogs. There is no way of comparing the two kinds of skill. But I'll not agree to deem the vanilla skill as better than insta. I watched a demo from our game against Styx and analyzed your attacker's movements. And many times I made huge eyes and said: "What is he doing?I would do something totally different". But that doesn't matter, since you guys don't play insta, so it's understandable. You'd say the same if I played vanilla.The fact that the game of MS vs Styx was so balanced and long proves that you all are great and multi-skilled players. And...

You say that the main factor of winning  an iCTF game is stubbornness and repeating the same dull moves over and over. The fact that MS won this game wasn't because we were stubborn. The factor of creating a weakness and using smart tactics is present too. The example could be that in the second round I switched with Eve, attacked and captured the first flag. That wasn't just bare luck. And in a situation where two teams are giving their best and using smart tactics and moves, the game is bound to be long and balanced. We were totally focused on finding your weaknesses, and there were some that we exploited. The fact that it took so long only proves that you were a challenging oponent. An instagib player watching our game would see the various moves and tactics that we used in attack. They were ineffective because you were a very good team. It just goes both ways. And because the game is in 2D and linear, there are not many ways of varying the tactics, especially on CTF2.

You say that capturing a flag is more a question of defense's mistakes than of attacker's movs. I can't agree here. See, stating something like this puts instagib in a "shoot-kill" category, while there is a lot more to that. I've seen some really original and effective moves in the games we've played. There were a lot of them in the Styx's gameplay. You don't see it, because you're not an instagib player, so again you are more focused on the "what" of the game, not on the "how". And because you were a very good team, our best moves and attempts were really challenged. Perseverance is a part of instagib, because you have to take into account that you'll die in a couple of seconds. So yeah, sometimes it's like trying to break a wall with your head. But the true art of winning in iCTF comes from complex moves and tactics which go so quickly that they're almost primal. As an insta player I saw that you lacked that and that's why we won, but I admit the game against Styx was the hardest in all the MTC. Vanilla players just can't see our perspective if they don't play insta, they will only see perseverance and stubbornness. But as an insta player I can guarantee that I know what moves and tactics make one team pwn the other. I could show you, but you'll have to sit with me and watch the demo. big_smile When getting from one side of the map to the other becomes a real challenge, it's not about capturing the flag anymore, it's about the small aims that we achieve on the road to the flag, and this is the beauty of instagib that we enjoy most.

You kill 5 players on the way to the flag only to find them on you when you finally get it.

...So you have to take it into account and take the other way to walk them around. Or try to do a kamikaze and kill everything on your way back. All in all, on your way back to the base you have to do thousands of complicated moves and distract your opponents, because if not, you'll die.

(everybody can move, shoot and want to win so much that they are stubborn enough to play 40mins games with 300 scorelimit):

See, again this is the reduction of instagib to a "shoot-kill" category. And if you don't play insta, you'll never see anything more than shooting and moving. But anyway, thanks for appreciating our teamplay.

You say that we don't want to challenge ourselves and risk being the underdogs in vanilla. Actually, before the clan came into life, we were all vanilla players who owned on public servers. We weren't the underdogs at all. smile We chose instagib and that's our way right now. We just prefer it over vanilla, that's all. We don't need to prove anything, we're certain that we would get owned in vanilla, but who cares? We could say the same about vanilla players, that they don't want to challenge themselves in insta, that they don't wanna be the underdogs etc. But we don't, because you play what you like and we don't care. We just wanna be seen and accepted as the other gametype, equal to vanilla, with the same rights. We don't wanna be seen as the "plague" that is destroying the community, because we're all nice guys. And if anybody chooses vanilla instead of insta, that's really okay. If anybody chooses insta, that's okay. Nobody is here to destroy the community.

As to the gametype filter that balanced the two forces: I agree, it's all more balanced now, and choosing instagib is now more a question of preference than of "being a noob and wanting to pwn". This is certainly helping us in gaining the respect we deserve, because now it's not so noobish, only the players that like insta more will play it.

As to instagib being in worse shape now - that's true. After the changes we lack a lot of players. The best players, the ones that created a big part of insta-community, are still in 0.4.3. We're in worse shape after the update, and we're afraid that vanilla wants to destroy insta. That's why we stood up and that's why we're trying to make things work for us. But despite all that, the future looks bright, and I hope we'll be able to live among vanilla players just like normal citizens who have their own ways. And if anybody doesn't understand the insta way of playing, we'd love to show them what fun we have to offer.

~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://www.monkeystyle.tk
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

11 (edited by Magnet 2009-02-25 15:01:22)

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

I have nothing much to reply, I admit winning in instagib is adding a lot of small victories and details, but hard efforts can be canceled with one shot. As for my moves in the MTC game we had, what round are you talking about? After 10 mins in the first round I stopped thinking and just went on attacking for the sake of finishing the game. And in the second round, I didn't play half seriously. If you have the full demo, watch me dance or stay out of the game for some time. I just wanted it to end and I didn't want it to last 35 mins like the first game. Ubuntu and I wanted to forfeit out of boredom (and because you clearly wanted the win a lot more than us), but Shyr and Huskil refused. bAkaht replaced Huskil and he never plays insta (and we laughed a lot because he scored, he reeks of awesomeness tongue).

Also you have to consider that in Instagib, people manage to create the openings in the defense because of a bad concentration at a given time, while in CTF this can be managed with advanced WEAPONS tactics (using the grenade launcher to force someone to dodge, etc). Ubuntu said it, I believe regular is chess and instagib is checkers.

Finally, about you owning in regular games previously to playing iCTF, I just want to point that the average level on regular has jumped astronomically and the MS members I meet in vanilla sometimes are currently midlevel in the regular scale. I understand your choice, I don't criticize you for it (that's something I said first line of my post), I just find it sad because your teamplay is above most CTF clans and it seems to me you don't know what regular at high level is these days. Clanwars are extremely different compared to public game. Just like a 1on1 iCTF is different from 6vs6, but much more.

Anyway I think MS is really good at instagib and lacks challenge there. I'm saddened that you are playing only one mod as a team, not for playing instagib specifically. I play all mods, at different investment levels, but I try all, and play all, from war3 to instagib, even if I consider my main gametype to be vanilla. I just would like for everyone to do the same, but heh, everyone is free to do whatever they please. Only because I would like them to do differently doesn't mean they have to and even less that they should care what I think smile.

12

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

soa 1. WHY at the first post O.o
instantgib is a mod like war3 like run like race like boming and all the other things
some people like it and some doesnt
i play instantgib some times and SOMETIMES it makes fun not to think and just shoot ( i suck at iCTF)
and you made a great job at the tournament
BUT ROFL WTH YOU MAKE SUCH A BIG THING OUT OF IT
JUST PLAY THE DAMN GAME
all the talking about respect and so on
everybody shoudl respect everyone but why do you hink that your so special because you play ictf
does the run people start crying because teetv dont stream them
or the sports people
the just play the game and have some fun so should you

i will never try to be good as ictf because i just dont like the fact of one weapon i miss to change weapons while fighting some one
that are things i love of tw and ictf put them away
and now you want to say that it offers fun --- not for me
but i would never force you or someone to play vanilla O.o

13

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

Stivi, i get your point, but there is more behind the instagib/vanilla case that you know. big_smile No time to talk about it now though.

~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://www.monkeystyle.tk
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

14 (edited by pAn!K - Hiryuu 2009-02-25 16:04:38)

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

First, I must say that I havn't read all your posts because some of them are really really long =_=
I'm agree with the players who find instagib really boring and I don't like instangib too but I think it is as competitiv as regular mods in a certain way and that's why I accepted a cup for MTC.

But as you saw during the tournament, there is a huge problem when 2 teams are more or less at the same level : a 500 points game can take more than 1 hour ! Why ? Because it's really easy to protect your flag ! When a enemy kill you in your base you instantly repop near him and with the instagib weapon. It's just impossible to take the flag if more than 3 good instagib players protect it. It work with the normal mod because a player who repop need to find weapons and shields. Besides it's more difficult to catch the flag carrier.

So, the question is : how can we solve the problem ?
As I said during the cup, I think that this mod need one little modification : the respawn time . If the respawn was set at 5 second then it would be difficult to protect the flag and the game would be a lot more interesting. I hope that a command like "respawn_time x" will be add because I really think that it's important for instagib and other mods.

To conclude I want to say that, even with all the problems we add, I think that it was a nice instagib tournament. Again, congratulation MS for your victory. I will make a new topic soon to talk about a big change that I want to make about the MTC so if some people want that MTC continue and become bigger wait for it because I really need some motivated guy to help me.

15

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

I haven't read yet Magnet posts, but I wanted to add my point of view now.

First of all, I'm sad to admit it, yet I expected it, but this post wasn't in purpose to create the too-much-seen-in-all-over-fps-history conflict : nw vs insta (normal weapon vs instagib)

Yes, I find the insta games kinda boring to watch. This is a true thing to me. In my opinion, this is mostly due to a two facts: a player with nice skills can make some job alone; there is, today, barely no team play in the instagib community.

Those two things come along with each other, resulting in the fact that players are kind of individuals. This can be very easily seen in publics (yet publics are publics, I know): players are trying to score for themselves, and not for the team. And sadly, this happens to work against non organized opponents.

Ok ok, publics aren't made for teamplay etc. Let's see a clanwar. This happens to be quite the same thing. I have quite never seen any team having a real teamwork, since we faced styx. I mean, what made the difference in this tournament between MS and others (not including styx) is the teamplay. Even in the final versus Z-team, which I repect for their perfomance, I didn't get what they were trying to do: all players attacking constantly, and defending when we were entering their base.

I think that some insta players, from different clans, we immediately argue that "we have teamplay, we have 2 players defending, and 2 players attacking, and we cover the flag carrier". Well, this is teamplay, but this is also very very very basic teamplay. One thing about the teworlds community is that most players arre between 14 and 16/17. And most of them haven't played a teamplay game before it. Personnaly, I think that MS players' past gaming carriers brought us a lot of things to improve our teamplay. And I would be very surprised if I heard that all teams participating to MTC insta competition used mics. I really guess that we were 2 ou 3 teams maximum. Trying to get some teamplay without mics is really really hard, and needs a third hand...

And so...
- defense speaking, having no teamplay allows some individuals to score without any help of any other tee.
- attack speaking, having no teamplay allows the defensing team to kill you one by one very easily.

To conclude on TP, skill is far away to be the most important thing to get in order to win a game. Teamplay is. Styx players, MS players are not the more skilled players in teeworlds. But they maybe use some more brain, and some more english smile

ANd to conclude on nw vs insta games, I guess that vanilla needs some more teamplay to get a cap, otherwise you immediately get stucks. Insta lacks of this "teamplay NEEDED" thing. And I am personnaly thinking of some things which could bring it. Ubuntu and I had a discussion about it in the past, which was very constructive. Hey, maybe we stopped fighting for some few minutes.

Joking ofc, cheers man wink

~{MS}~ Eve ~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://www.monkeystyle.tk
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

16 (edited by Magnet 2009-02-25 15:59:04)

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

pAn!K - Hiryuu wrote:

So, the question is : how can we solve the problem ? As I said during the cup, I think that this mod need one little modification : the respawn time . If the respawn was set at 5 second then it would be difficult to protect the flag and the game would be a lot more interesting. I hope that a command like "respawn_time x" will be add because I really think that it's important for instagib and other mods.

I thought about that, and even make it variable depending on your distance to the flag (die after middle: instant respawn, die in your base: 5s respawn. In middle: 5s/relative position). The problem is that no one wants to wait to respawn. This is boring to wait for a 3s respawn when using the selfkill, so really I'm not sure. That would be better than nothing but I'm sure a lot of players would hate it.

There is no good solution, that's why I said I think it's impossible. The instagib community should decide what they want to do, they are the only ones concerned about it. Whatever happens, I'll add that the MTC showed me what iCTF is when played seriously and at high levels and I simply did not like it also because of the lack of diversity (I really miss other weapons), so I will only play the mod on public games for relaxation when I don't want to play seriously.

17

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

The big problem is, that the normal maps are not suitable for instagib games. The respawn points are normally near the flag or on the way from the flag to the enemy base. Then it's easy to kill the flag carrier.

I personally see the following solutions:
Rework the map's spawnpts: but this really sucks, as noone wants to have to different versions for instagib and vanilla
increase respawn time: i think it's worth a try (see above Hiryuu's post)
increase the flagcarrier's health/armor : Makes it even more tactical

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

18

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

Magnet said:
Unfortunately, there is one thing differentiating us that prevent this debate from going far -- and that is that we know the layout of pro CTF games, and the layout of pro iCTF games, while you obviously don't know much about pro CTF games. The 'proof', here again, is that you thought the most common situation in CTF is that both teams get the flag. This is actually a rare event in clanwars (just as rare as in Instagib), and it happens mostly on low-level public games.

Could you email me in order to get in touch and then trying to share me a nice vanilla clanwar demo? I really wanna see what it is. No jokes here, just real interest, as my only point of view is vanilla publics, which, as you said, often result in two caps in a time. Thanks!

~{MS}~ Eve ~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://www.monkeystyle.tk
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

19

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

magnet said:
But the true winning factor was stubbornness, willing to win at all costs. Taking the flag and scoring was more a question of persistence and waiting for the opponent defense to lack of concentration, than actually out of smart tactics, attack moves. This is what regular CTF is about: best attackers aren't just dully attacking over and over, they are trying to create a weakness at a given time and exploit it. And once they get the flag, it's not only about rushing (though I'll admit that teamplay plays a big part in bringing the flag back in Instagib too). In vanilla CTF, a smart flag carrier is a player who knows how to fool the defense at a level incomparable to iCTF.

I have to say that this can be true, although it is hard to compare. I totally agree that a cap made using your brain to get the opportunity to take the flag and bring it back, covered by your mates, is the greatest satisfaction you can have in teeworlds. But, without trying to say that this is easy in vanilla (I tried in public, this is quite impossible for me, with my skills and poor knowledge of vanilla), waiting and feigning for the weet spot is kind of an impossible mission in instagib, because of... one shoot one kill smile Some players, teams, manage to do it well, the fact that you have no chance for a single fault in your gameplay is... pfiou... freaking. But this is a challenge.

~{MS}~ Eve ~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://www.monkeystyle.tk
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

20 (edited by Magnet 2009-02-25 16:23:30)

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

ctan wrote:

Could you email me in order to get in touch and then trying to share me a nice vanilla clanwar demo? I really wanna see what it is. No jokes here, just real interest, as my only point of view is vanilla publics, which, as you said, often result in two caps in a time. Thanks!

No problem!

I have tons of cool demos at home. Get in touch on IRC I'll send you one tonight.
(Unfortunately not all demos are perfect games either tongue).

21

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

Magnet said:
Well, tastes are very personal, but I can't help to think they just don't want to challenge themselves and risk going back to being the underdogs

Well, I'm afraid to say that if we were four year back, this would be a great pleasure for me - as I said tons of times, I've been playing unreal tournament normal weapon with Tho for years, we didn't like instabig at all. But the fact is that all MS players basically play for fun, and all agree to say that real life will always be more important than gmaing etc. And first teeworlds, then instagib, offers us the possibility to play and keep our skills without having to take too much times. This will certainly go in the favor of vanilla, and I don't regret what I'm gonna say, but I really feel that getting a skilled level in vanilla would take me too much time. Not ages, but I got too much things in my life, hopefully as most of you guys:

- girl friend (yes, i'm a man, for those who don't know)
- family
- friends
- three / four hobbies taking me at least 3 hours a day

But hey, Magnet, if someone could learn me the basics, I'd agree to play some fun games with you guys, coz I can't take on my time to learn them by myself sad. I'm openminded wink

~{MS}~ Eve ~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://www.monkeystyle.tk
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

22

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

Somerunce said:
What I wanna say is, I need your help. Help me to make the mod more compative. Don't just say "laserjumps sux somerunce you idiot remove them", because that doesn't help anyone. Come with something new. Do we wanna keep playing this messy mod forever or try to add some spirit into it?

TO SOMERUNCE : I am currently working on it (in my mind). As I said, I had some inputs from Magnet and Ubuntu, and I'm thinking hard (hard for me...) about it. I'll make some proposals to you soon, if you allow me to.

TO STYX AND MS : I think that if we could meet on irc (those who want to, ofc, I don't want this to be a fight wink ), we could discuss about thos improvements. I think that vanilla players advices can be really useful here. What do you guys think?

~{MS}~ Eve ~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://www.monkeystyle.tk
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

23

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

Hiryuu said:
As I said during the cup, I think that this mod need one little modification : the respawn time . If the respawn was set at 5 second then it would be difficult to protect the flag and the game would be a lot more interesting. I hope that a command like "respawn_time x" will be add because I really think that it's important for instagib and other mods.

I thought about it, but I think that this would only result in something like: best aim wins. I mean, this would be kind of brainless then. As a matter of fact, in order to kill your ennemy (let's not consider the bounce), you have to face up your ennemy. And some guys have such great aims that you can just do nothing but die before shooting at least one time... sad

~{MS}~ Eve ~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://www.monkeystyle.tk
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

24

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

ctan wrote:

[snip]
But hey, Magnet, if someone could learn me the basics, I'd agree to play some fun games with you guys, coz I can't take on my time to learn them by myself sad. I'm openminded wink

Considering you all come with the instagib skill, learning regular should be a lot faster than for most players. I think you could all become "high-level" in regular in about 2 weeks. Once again, as I said, the skillspan in regular is enormous, there's midlevel, high-level, and ultimate tongue. And borderlines (between midlevel and highlevel). At higher points, the differences are very small but let's take a "pro" and a "high-level", they may look the same, the highlevel will die 80% of the time for a very slight differences and lack of experience.

I can give you pointers regarding weapon usage and ctf strategies, but at some point, it all boils down to game experience. I think MS are many (10?) so you could have internal practice with no pressure.

And I do play for fun too, I even have a real life (yeah, for realz). I play regular specifically because it is there the fun lies for me smile. Find me on IRC tonight, I'll find a good demo to send you then I can give you some pointers regarding the differences between regular and instagib gameplay.

25

Re: [COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1873/editfunctionge6.gif

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!