26 (edited by Chi11y 2008-07-05 21:19:48)

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

catpaw wrote:

Its not the knife thats evil, its what some people do with it while others use it to cut just bread.

Yeah, but there would be alot more people, and less personal pain on the earth if there were no knives, don't you think?

No, seriously I think those who code things like this should take their responability and either make it restricted so it can't be abused, or rather not create it at all. Apps like this create hate on the internet, like preists that don't heal (swedish pun, you wouldn't understand it even if I explained it), because it enables scriptkiddies to take other peoples work, if you want to use another persons tileset, ask the god damn person who made it and respect the artist.

No one wants somebody else to take credit for their work, if they haven't expressed that as their will. When making an application like this you are creating a tool that does something no one should do, either according to moral or to law, and if you take someone elses work and modifies it you are indeed breaking copyright laws. I recommend people not to use a tool like this, but instead to ask the tilesetcreator politely about allowance to use the tileset, doing otherwise may be illegal, and is always very bad manners.

Now I've said what I think, and I think you, catpaw, should instead of creating tools like this that can harm the community, help the community by creating patches for the game or creating quality mods or alike, Teeworlds will gain so much more that way.

Thanks for me, I'll try to stay out of this topic now... Don't sure I can keep that as a promise tho big_smile

Official Teeworlds map developer and community moderator
Administrator for the Teeworlds community Teesites

27

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

Yeah, Chi11y is right. Some ppl just copy, paste and don't even give the credits for oth ppl's hard work. It's disappointing, even if you've published under (cc) with a licence enforcing to give credit. So happened to some work by me. Since I like other ppl to be inspired by my work, I encourage them to modify, remix or redo stuff, but I expect appreciation with giving credits. I know most ppl here are young and not familiar with having done something worthful what somebody else steals / copies, but this isn't any excuse for having no respect.

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28 (edited by catpaw 2008-07-05 22:22:51)

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

Chi11y wrote:
catpaw wrote:

Its not the knife thats evil, its what some people do with it while others use it to cut just bread.

Yeah, but there would be alot more people, and less personal pain on the earth if there were no knives, don't you think?

We would not have even reached stone age having no tools like knifes.

I think those who code things like this should take their responability and either make it restricted so it can't be abused, or rather not create it at all.

This is where you are wrong. You are proposing the "rulership" of the coders above the non-coders. This is wrong.

You can do good and bad things with this tool. I don't feel responsible for the people who do bad things. If you extract a png just ask the author if its okay to reuse, than you save all the hassle of sending it around.

Also you completly overlooked my point that people were reusing tilesets eitherway by erase-editing the original map.

Apps like this create hate on the internet, like preists that don't heal (swedish pun, you wouldn't understand it even if I explained it), because it enables scriptkiddies to take other peoples work.

No it are people like you who create hate on the internet. Like priests that don't heal. Heck you are enjoying a free game, free code, then you add a tileset on it, and then you scream "My god damm copyright, don't use it your bastards".

This is so hyprocrite.

BTW: How many tilesets out there are copyright infringements themselfes. Hint Super Mario Tileset. Did you scream up there as well?

if you want to use another persons tileset, ask the god damn person who made it and respect the artist.

Yes, okay still asks them, being able to extract tilesets doesn't hinder you to ask.

When making an application like this you are creating a tool that does something no one should do, either according to moral or to law, and if you take someone elses work and modifies it you are indeed breaking copyright laws.

Again you overlooked to point to be able to import the tileset into inkscape, and draw your own completly from scratch on top of it.

I recommend people not to use a tool like this, but instead to ask the tilesetcreator politely about allowance to use the tileset, doing otherwise may be illegal, and is always very bad manners.

Stop babbling about the stupid law, if you ever a problem file a case. I don´t see any of you whiners do this.

Also isn´t it bad manners to base a map on a free game, and then to claime exlusive copyright to it? (hypocrite)

Now I've said what I think, and I think you, catpaw, should instead of creating tools like this that can harm the community,

Harming the community? Stop it. You are harming the community feeling by shit like this.

help the community by creating patches for the game or creating quality mods or alike, Teeworlds will gain so much more that way.

Well make the project team at least respont to my patches in the development area. They are just ignoring them, so much of asking of participation.

Thanks for me, I'll try to stay out of this topic now... Don't sure I can keep that as a promise tho big_smile

Bye! Hope you can keep out and not further harm the community.

29

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

catpaw wrote:
Chi11y wrote:
catpaw wrote:

Its not the knife thats evil, its what some people do with it while others use it to cut just bread.

Yeah, but there would be alot more people, and less personal pain on the earth if there were no knives, don't you think?

We would not have even reached stone age having no tools like knifes.

I think those who code things like this should take their responability and either make it restricted so it can't be abused, or rather not create it at all.

This is where you are wrong. You are proposing the "rulership" of the coders above the non-coders. This is wrong.

You can do good and bad things with this tool. I don't feel responsible for the people who do bad things. If you extract a png just ask the author if its okay to reuse, than you save all the hassle of sending it around.

Also you completly overlooked my point that people were reusing tilesets eitherway by erase-editing the original map.

Apps like this create hate on the internet, like preists that don't heal (swedish pun, you wouldn't understand it even if I explained it), because it enables scriptkiddies to take other peoples work.

No it are people like you who create hate on the internet. Like priests that don't heal. Heck you are enjoying a free game, free code, then you add a tileset on it, and then you scream "My god damm copyright, don't use it your bastards".

This is so hyprocrite.

BTW: How many tilesets out there are copyright infringements themselfes. Hint Super Mario Tileset. Did you scream up there as well?

if you want to use another persons tileset, ask the god damn person who made it and respect the artist.

Yes, okay still asks them, being able to extract tilesets doesn't hinder you to ask.

When making an application like this you are creating a tool that does something no one should do, either according to moral or to law, and if you take someone elses work and modifies it you are indeed breaking copyright laws.

Again you overlooked to point to be able to import the tileset into inkscape, and draw your own completly from scratch on top of it.

I recommend people not to use a tool like this, but instead to ask the tilesetcreator politely about allowance to use the tileset, doing otherwise may be illegal, and is always very bad manners.

Stop babbling about the stupid law, if you ever a problem file a case. I don´t see any of you whiners do this.

Also isn´t it bad manners to base a map on a free game, and then to claime exlusive copyright to it? (hypocrite)

Now I've said what I think, and I think you, catpaw, should instead of creating tools like this that can harm the community,

Harming the community? Stop it. You are harming the community feeling by shit like this.

help the community by creating patches for the game or creating quality mods or alike, Teeworlds will gain so much more that way.

Well make the project team at least respont to my patches in the development area. They are just ignoring them, so much of asking of participation.

Thanks for me, I'll try to stay out of this topic now... Don't sure I can keep that as a promise tho big_smile

Bye! Hope you can keep out and not further harm the community.

Well, I just failed @ staying out of this topic....


Quote #1: d'oh, I was using sarcasm, you seem to fail at seeing that, though.

Quote #2: "This is where you are wrong. You are proposing the "rulership" of the coders above the non-coders. This is wrong." I don't force you, but I always think coders should take responsability for what their apps could be used to, as there are so many scriptkiddies out there that feed on coders ignorance.


"Also you completly overlooked my point that people were reusing tilesets eitherway by erase-editing the original map."
I don't think that is much more okey, still, while it is embedded in the file you can't redistribute a modified version of it while it is embedded, alsa if that is a good way to do it, why should someone use your app?




Quote #3: Here you very well show that you don't care about other ppl. Those who create art for the community to enjoy should be hanled with respect, just as those who create code that helps the community. It is all about repecting other peoples work. Oh, I dislike people using Nintendo's work too, even if that is more by principle, as Nintendo gains more than they lose on such a project.



Quote #4: Nope, but asking makes this application totally uneeded, and further shows how you created this app to do something you aren't allowed to do.


Quote #5: If you erase the entire tileset, why would you need to extract it? Just create a blank page in inkscape and your app is once again uneeded for anything but something you shouldn't do.


Quote #6: If the map is included in the game, yes, but as the maps you extract pngs from is external they apply under different conditions and is licensed the way the map author wants them to be, some people include licenses for their map in zipfiles uploaded to these forums, and then you are legally bound to obey it. The law isn't about suing people or filing cases, but about creating rules that makes this world a good place. Obey them instead of babbeling about filing cases.


Quote #7: Yep. I like to crash this community. I really hate all the people in here, which is why I spend my time here almost every day, is one of the activest members in this projects IRC channel, and helps the devs whenever I can (which isn't too often sad )


Quote #8: I've talked about this with the devs and they say that it is about time, IRL and mostly organization. A system for applying patches is in the early state of thinking and will hopefully be in place as soon as possible. Until then please bear with the people who ideally create this game taking time from the rest of their lives that they could have used in so many other ways.


Quote #9: I've been here for a long time and have no plans in leaving, and I hope you have no such plans either, as this place lacks experienced coders and has too much blatant noobs.



I hope the thinks I've said hasn't made you angry on me, as I'm just expressing my thoughts and wishes as I want teeworlds to be pleasant for both players, artists and coders... smile


Now I'll try to stay out of this thread, so do no personal attacks that will make me come back and haunt ya'. wink



btw. long post ftl hmm

Official Teeworlds map developer and community moderator
Administrator for the Teeworlds community Teesites

30 (edited by catpaw 2008-07-06 00:11:18)

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

Chi11y wrote:

Quote #1: d'oh, I was using sarcasm, you seem to fail at seeing that, though.

I have seen it, I decided to ignore it. Sarcasm FTL.

Quote #2: "This is where you are wrong. You are proposing the "rulership" of the coders above the non-coders. This is wrong." I don't force you, but I always think coders should take responsability for what their apps could be used to, as there are so many scriptkiddies out there that feed on coders ignorance.

Well depends on what kind of 'scriptkiddy application' you are referring too. There are applications out there that will test all kinds of well known security holes on a machine. Is this application bad and should not have been developed? No, because it can and is used by sysadmins to test their machines, the hackers out there know the tricks eitherway.

Quote #3: Here you very well show that you don't care about other ppl. Those who create art for the community to enjoy should be hanled with respect, just as those who create code that helps the community. It is all about repecting other peoples work. Oh, I dislike people using Nintendo's work too, even if that is more by principle, as Nintendo gains more than they lose on such a project.

Oh I do care about people, and I do care about the project. I do not care about people trying to hinder other people trying to be creative.

Look copyright has been invented, because before that people didn't share their work, because they didn't want it to be copied. Then people thought about copyright, because they wanted people to be able to give their work to others. Copyright was intended to create a more open society. When we now turn it the other way around, ther is something going wrong.


Quote #4: Nope, but asking makes this application totally uneeded, and further shows how you created this app to do something you aren't allowed to do.

Quote #5: If you erase the entire tileset, why would you need to extract it? Just create a blank page in inkscape and your app is once again uneeded for anything but something you shouldn't do.

To use it as inspiration?

Look, I think authorship is to some degree an illusion nevertheless. When you say 'i did this', did you do this without relying on any ideas you heared of? without being inspired by any graphic?

take for example the great artists. Many of them started as copiers. Take Michael Angelo for example, who made a living by copying art, and by it studying how other artists worked.

Copying is bad, if you just take something and sell it as you own. If Copying means taking something, then to study its design, then to create your own variation of this, then its good, and the basis to ingeniousness. This is now more possible with this app than before.


but about creating rules that makes this world a good place. Obey them instead of babbeling about filing cases.

Well lets talk about two things here. First the world of teeworlds and then the world out there. I challenge which idea of copyright is more fruitfull to create a rich and well developed teeworlds universe. I have always taken it for granted than nobody complains when I take a map shared on the forums and create an improved version. When you see, no because we want to "protect" the right of the original map creator, you are destroying a lot of possible things.

Then there is the world out there that is law, which can determine the world in here. But only if you fill in a case, so stop babbling about the law but instead apply to conscience when you are not really ready to go to court.

Quote #7: Yep. I like to crash this community. I really hate all the people in here, which is why I spend my time here almost every day

Same "argument" holds true for me, when you think i coded this because I like to crash this community, then you are obviously wrong. When you say, I do this unintenionally, I say you do it unintentinally with this at least just as well, even if not far more.

Quote #8: I've talked about this with the devs and they say that it is about time, IRL and mostly organization. A system for applying patches is in the early state of thinking and will hopefully be in place as soon as possible. Until then please bear with the people who ideally create this game taking time from the rest of their lives that they could have used in so many other ways.

I don't ask for a system (a system again something i suppose to contorl people) but just a f**** little post, "ah yes, nice patch, will look at it later". If you don't have the 5 seconds to write this little sentence you obviously don't care about people writing patches, and unintentinally want to stop or you are just generally really bad handling with people.

Most opensource projects out there, far greater in size than teeworlds, did already years very well without a dedicated 'patch system'. Remember the linux kernel 8 years they just worked with diff and patch. then bitkeeper now git. Where git is actually a very very enhanced version of diff and patch.

Well I dont complain on this further, I just decided not to give patches anymore, so dont complain at me either I'm not doing it this way. It is eithway a two-way street.

I hope the thinks I've said hasn't made you angry on me, as I'm just expressing my thoughts and wishes as I want teeworlds to be pleasant for both players, artists and coders... smile

Now I'll try to stay out of this thread, so do no personal attacks that will make me come back and haunt ya'. wink

you  *beep*ish *beep* of *beep* smile


btw. long post ftl hmm

Long posts for the win! I know the attention span of todays people is getting shorter and shorter, but this shouldn't make one giving up writing posts with real content.

31 (edited by Lappi 2008-07-06 00:30:40)

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

Well it's not really about your program, since it does something easier what one could have done with a long way round. So your handy tool (only) reduces the effort you have to spend to get to the original png. Curiously somehow people tend not to value things with little effort. Since mp3 are easy to obtain via the internet, less people care about showing their appreciation to the artist by buying a cd. This community is highly driven by teenager and kids who often didn't do something so valueable, that they'd care about copy right or copy left. Look around how many game.pngs are nothing more than pictures in which the "artist" copied their favourite guns from other ppl. Of course the header is "roxxorkiddie's game-skin".

In a nutshell: Thx for your programm. I'm sure some lads and lasses will use it for a very good purpose and it will push the community forwards (I'm serious!). If we stick with the original post: The 2nd football map only was possible, 'cause Rajh made a mod and Landil improved the map - and yeah, he just started with Rajh's map. (But Landil gave credit to Rajh and didn't publish the map before his approval, if I remember correctly).

But this still does not solve the problem. How can one train ppl in feeling responsible for following some (you might say nasty) rules that a community is built on? I always hoped I could take some respect for granted. But most people even don't make it to use this forum in English. Any ideas? Should one include a legal note at the top of each skin thread (or at the beginning of this post)? - I dread it!

Question? search function
Short movies? Lappi's link loft
Teeworlds info'n'tuts on gfx? Landil's sketchbook

32

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

See, from where I sit, licensing all maps under cc-by-nc-sa and have the people adhere to that license would solve all the problems here.

if($poster["intelligence"] == $intelligence["idiot"])
        deny_post($poster);

33 (edited by catpaw 2008-07-06 09:47:24)

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

Lappi wrote:

Well it's not really about your program, since it does something easier what one could have done with a long way round. So your handy tool (only) reduces the effort you have to spend to get to the original png. Curiously somehow people tend not to value things with little effort. Since mp3 are easy to obtain via the internet, less people care about showing their appreciation to the artist by buying a cd. This community is highly driven by teenager and kids who often didn't do something so valueable, that they'd care about copy right or copy left. Look around how many game.pngs are nothing more than pictures in which the "artist" copied their favourite guns from other ppl. Of course the header is "roxxorkiddie's game-skin".

In a nutshell: Thx for your programm. I'm sure some lads and lasses will use it for a very good purpose and it will push the community forwards (I'm serious!). If we stick with the original post: The 2nd football map only was possible, 'cause Rajh made a mod and Landil improved the map - and yeah, he just started with Rajh's map. (But Landil gave credit to Rajh and didn't publish the map before his approval, if I remember correctly).

But this still does not solve the problem. How can one train ppl in feeling responsible for following some (you might say nasty) rules that a community is built on? I always hoped I could take some respect for granted. But most people even don't make it to use this forum in English. Any ideas? Should one include a legal note at the top of each skin thread (or at the beginning of this post)? - I dread it!

Thank you, I agree, there is a real problem to teach todays kids whats cool and whats isn't. How many already send in homework at school that they copy/pasted from the internet? And actually when you look the tasks some teachers give, they are even asking for copy/pasts like "look up on the internet...".

This goes even on academic student level. How many presentations I've seen where the students presenting were not able to make clear what of the content they are presenting is originally from the author/text they were supposed to work through and what is their ideas/comments/opinions on/from it.

About copying level contents. I think we really have to think about when the original artist is harmed and when he isn't. Comparing with mp3 we have to say that nobody is in here for the money. So nobody can complain to have lost money because somebody copied the tileset instead of buying it. I mean what do you really have less, if you discover one of your tilesets you drew for one of your maps used in another map? So its about fame and respect. Thats something social that has to be enacted in a social way, not by technology. And I agree, just taking somebodies else work by copy/paste and label it as your is bad.

I agree with Roanoke, Indead ideally we should wish that any maps/tilesets/skins are to be implicitly creative commons. Would make life a lot easier. The same holds true on code level. Actually since the teeworlds license is very open, allowing closed work based upon open work, if you take it painstankingly the maintainers would always have to ask if any patch you give you release under the same license they did so they can include it, or if you didn't and pick any other license. Since this is a terrible chaos thats why many projects use 'viral licenses' like the GPL, since you can automatically assume any patch to be under the GPL license as well, or otherwise the patch would be illegal. However many people out of a gut feeling hate licenses of this stile. They are actually a "hack" on current copyright law to ensure copy-and creativity-freedom.

About the language in the forums, I think it would be a good idea to have some 'general talk' purpose german/skandinavic/italien whatever subforums, and elect at least one person that speaks each lanuauge you trust well to moderate it. So people who have really weak english skills can be helped also. I`d use private messages also in native language if it would be possible smile

Coping does stay an integral part of creativity, if done right and not wrong. Often enough I tell people when they ask how is this/that done, open that map in the editor and study what the other artist has done. Or take for example my map 'bloodmusic', as complete "bricolage" it's highly original. However actually all the parts are just copied and put together in a new way, and I don't make a secret of having copied it. First the map itself is painstankingly a copy of the 'bloodmusics' map of another game -- xpilots. I think I've paid my respect by keeping the nickname of the original artist. Then the tileset is modified standard tileset with round shadows. Then I've seen this day/night map on the forums and said, cool that I will add too. Then even the game mod that is losing health by shooting is inspired by xpilots, where shooting costs fuel. Then the clouds in the background are copied from a gimp tutorial on how to draw clouds. Then I've added this big tees in the bases as background art. Well they are actually some art I found on the teeworlds forum. However they were not really the way I wanted them to be, so I did load the png into inkscape, drew the vector graphics on top of them, to look similar in the parts I wanted to keep, and then I deleted the pngs. So you get the idea how you can work 'original', most times its rearrenging existing stuff in a new way, and add a bit of really new stuff upon it. The next artist does the same, and thats how human progress works. When we look back in time, often the "extreme ingeniuses" look only so ingenious, because we completly removed the context they rearranged existing stuff under. When you in detail analyse most artist/scientist/inventors you will discover that 90% of their work was actually just available at their time, it was only them that combined it in a way not thinked of before, or we attribute the 90% also to them, because the other little steps were all to unimportant to make a seperate entry in a history book.

34

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

Roanoke wrote:

See, from where I sit, licensing all maps under cc-by-nc-sa and have the people adhere to that license would solve all the problems here.

+1

Official Teeworlds map developer and community moderator
Administrator for the Teeworlds community Teesites

35

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

Chi11y wrote:
Roanoke wrote:

See, from where I sit, licensing all maps under cc-by-nc-sa and have the people adhere to that license would solve all the problems here.

+1

cc-by-nc-sa:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

Yea, seems like a very nice license.

36

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

Nice, seems alittle complex but nice. smile

Give others the respect you wish to be respected with. In the mean time, enjoy the website!

37

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

Where is the "src/tools/" path?

38

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

1. As long as the content is relevant any post counts, regardless of length. Ironically your post and all that followed (including this one) are totally off-topic and therefor are the only post in this topic which can be defined as spam.

2. It's also completely useless to act as a moderator while not being one. If the moderators decide the posts are too long they'll take care of them. They don't need your help to make that decision. If you really think they need to take a look at something use the Report function.

Please consider these points on all of your following posts.

39

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

Azon wrote:

1. As long as the content is relevant any post counts, regardless of length. Ironically your post and all that followed (including this one) are totally off-topic and therefor are the only post in this topic which can be defined as spam.

2. It's also completely useless to act as a moderator while not being one. If the moderators decide the posts are too long they'll take care of them. They don't need your help to make that decision. If you really think they need to take a look at something use the Report function.

Please consider these points on all of your following posts.

I love posts written by Azon ^^ Best writer on this forum.
i always have to laugh my ass off xD

Dead threads ftw

*** JUSTICE ALWAYS WINS ***

40

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

LastLost wrote:

Where is the "src/tools/" path?

I can't found still. hmm

41

Re: extract pngs from existing maps.

did you try to download the source anyway? wink

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