Topic: #1134 Weapon spawn place graphics

#1134 Issue: [game graphics] Weapon spawn place graphics
Labels: feature, gameplay, graphics

Landil opened issue at 2013-08-22 09:38:


This has been on the to-do list since 0.3 and now I've just made a gfx-concept.
Two tile wide spawn places look best (I suggest using quads instead). A solution for in-air spawn places needs to be found.

Another idea which can be realized with this is to let the spawn point blink a couple of seconds before the weapons respawn.

Please give feedback if you want to implement it.

:-1: The weapon colors need be more present

heinrich5991 commented at 2013-08-22 11:44:

I think adding features like this that do not improve gameplay significantly, goes against our KISS principle.

Fisico commented at 2013-08-22 13:52:

i love this idea!

Landil commented at 2013-08-23 13:11:

Well the game play is simpler if you do not have to remember where the weapons spawn.

heinrich5991 commented at 2013-08-23 13:19:

KISS does not state that it should be simple as in easy, but rather simple as in minimal.

Landil commented at 2013-08-23 17:12:

Simple as in you should not have to guess where the weapons spawn. It's supposed to be a simple game in the sense of let's start and play.

heinrich5991 commented at 2013-08-23 19:13:

We might have picked up that principle by now, but I'm pretty sure the original KISS in teeworlds ment minimal.

magnet commented at 2013-09-12 10:16:

We should agree not to dumb the game down. That won't get us any more players not achieve any gameplay purpose.
Of course knowing the map is a part of the game. I find both ideas revolting, especially the idea of hinting when the spawn will happen. Spawns happen every 15 seconds and there's a time counter on the top of the client. What is left for the player to do? There are enough noobish spawn campers as it is.

Landil commented at 2013-09-12 18:40:

Can you please tell me exactly why showing the weapon spawnplaces will dumb down the game? It provides orientation to beginners and occasional players. It will not change the game play for mid- and high-lvl players.

magnet commented at 2013-09-12 19:32:

Landil, I simply agree with heinrich.

There are two proposals in your post:
- Showing spawnplace (and optionally the weapon kind)
- Showing when weapons are about to spawn.

First I'm sure we can agree showing when weapons are about to spawn will change gameplay for everyone. When a weapon will start blinking, a fight will take place for that weapon. Today, a good player will know when the spawning happens (that's called mapcontrol, and that's an advanced skill) and can snatch it without having to fight for it because his knowledge gives him an advantage. That's now aiming or movement skill, but skill nonetheless.

Now, what about merely showing where weapon spawns are. Is it a big deal? Obviously it's not of the same magnitude as showing weapons about to spawn. Beginners find weapons by simply coming by them and taking them, but when they know of a spot (e.g, laser on dm2, katana on dm1, etc) they will camp for it. I believe this will not help beginners to find weapons, but merely encourage some to camp for a slot they come across. Now, what goes in the mind of the new player? I'm pretty sure we can all answer as we all were new players at one point. I remember: I understood, little by little, that some spots would be weapon spawns because I saw the same weapons there. I eventually remembered more and more spots on more maps. And I came to remember them on the maps I frequent most, and to keep them in mind when I encounter them on maps I rarely play.

As long as the weapon respawn is not shown, it will not decrease the game experience for mid or high-level players (even though good players can also forget the exact location of a spawn point and miss it by a tee or two). However I do find that nothing warrants it, and as such, I don't feel it should change. Also, as a matter of personal taste, I find weaponspawn stands (this graphics or else) ugly.

Landil commented at 2013-09-12 19:57:

I do not want to discuss the weapon spawn point timer. It definitely will change game play though there are clients out there which already are able to do this. It might be an interesting game play change ...

What's the change of a a graphical weapon spawn point indication? Does it make the game more complex? No! Does it dumb down the game? No. It just gives orientation to the beginners. Making it simpler to understand how teeworlds game play works.
I will tell you my perspective as a new player: It took a long time until I figured out weapons do not spawn randomly and that there are certain spawn points. Why do I need to figure this out? Why do not we share that information from the beginning? People should not guess where weapons spawn. Besides it does not easen map control in any way. Map control means that you get the right timing. Knowing where to go at the proper time, knowing when you need to reload your weapons, knowing the places where to shoot because you anticipate where people might go and grab a weapon.

Memorizing weapon spawn places is not the simpleness you always praise. It's just not telling beginners how teeworlds works. What about unhookables or death tiles? Should not we remove the graphics to improve (smart up) game play, too? People could find out these places by trial and error, too and memorize it.

The way it is shown was a concept. Of course there are millions of possibilities to make it look more discreet e.g. by using a variation of already known tiles, a highly saturated red, brown or blue unhookable.

heinrich5991 commented at 2013-09-12 20:26:

So, this stuff was discussed on IRC, with (very) mixed feelings of the developers. I don't know how to proceed here furtherly, one option would be to ask the community (in the forums) what they think about this change.

Landil commented at 2013-09-12 20:41:

this is a more discreet way of a weapon spawn point using a variation of already existing unhookable tiles.

ghost commented at 2014-03-06 09:54:

Most esport-relevant games mark significant spots.
And with a good reason: Basic map knowledge IS NO skill. It should be shipped with the map.
E.g.: StarCraft2 marks start positions. Counter Strikes marks bomb areas. Dota2 marks secret shops and rune spots.

Therefore I support your idea Landil.
Why do players have to study a map before they can play on it?
It is like Landil mentioned: Not telling where weapons spawn is like removing unhookable and death tiles.

BUT: I agree to magnet when he said that those graphics are ugly. Even your discreet way brings problems with it, as it can be mixed up with unhookable tiles.
What we need are unique identifiers! And if you don't want to include them into the official maps yet, I would propose to ship 0.7 with them (or publish them on teeworlds.com) so the community can decide to take the idea or not.

cinaera commented at 2014-03-06 11:40:

Would prefer to just add this as some kind of "mapping style convention" for the standard maps to somehow highlight the weapon placements instead of a generic image

ghost commented at 2014-03-06 11:59:

But before we can definie a convenient mapping style convention (TQ), we first need to ship teeworlds with a generic image.

ghost91- commented at 2014-04-14 14:30:

I completely agree with @cinaera here. I think it would be a good idea to implement it that way.

magnet commented at 2014-04-22 17:06:

I agree for no image, but rather make spots obvious by convention. Please don't dumb the game down.

oy commented at 2014-06-21 13:03:

Second the "mapping style convention" idea.

Not Luck, Just Magic.